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  why is Ontario so far ahead of BC

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TightD



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PostSubject: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:11 pm

All the talk in the forum recently seems fixated on allstars...got me to thinking why Ontario produces major talents by the boatload compared to BC. Forget the population difference. Ontario's best players seem to end up playing significant roles at major schools down south including playing in the Mcdonalds highschool allstar game today. Why are they so much better?
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CharlesII



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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:09 pm

I agree that Ontario has produced better basketball players than BC, there's no point in denying that and it's a proven fact if we compare the two provinces and how many NCAA players are from Ontario compared to the NCAA players in BC, Ontario has the edge. Obviously, population matters like you said, but with that being said Ontario kids get a lot more exposure than the kids in BC have. In Ontario, there are I would say 15 times more basketball clubs there than there are in BC (Don't quote me on that, 15 is a mere number it could be 20,25, etc) Therefore, more kids get better because there's more basketball clubs, so there individual development is a lot faster than the kids in BC where there are approximately 6-8 clubs that are popular such as Drive, Basketball BC, Athelite, 3D, etc.
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Sportvictoria



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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:22 pm

TightD wrote:
All the talk in the forum recently seems fixated on allstars...got me to thinking why Ontario produces major talents by the boatload compared to BC. Forget the population difference. Ontario's best players seem to end up playing significant roles at major schools down south including playing in the Mcdonalds highschool allstar game today. Why are they so much better?


Population of Ontario - 13.2 m

Population of BC - 4.5 m

How can you forget the population differnce?

More people in an area results in more opportunities and a stronger competition for everything.


Lyle Dhur
Sportvictoria
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CoachR



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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:25 pm

AAU is huge in Ontario this giving players an opputrunity to play all year round against tougher competition down south
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spidey



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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:05 am

AAU and there development programs with AAU they play top competiton year around and are always getting better
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JC44



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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:38 am

Yeah they have more people but at the end of the day they have more AAU programs and better AAU programs so it comes down to that, Ontario kids get way more exposure.
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TightD



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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:17 am

Sportvictoria.....even taking population into account they still produce a far greater quantity of elite talent.

I was in the ontario forum and there was a link to a "flagrant fouls" website related to a Canadian highschool allstar game and the 100 players under consideration....i think only 5 from BC were even on the consideration list. Also it seems many take their game down south to play at prep schools. Flagrant fouls website also has a listing for top highschool talent (grade 9 through 12) in Canada and once again it is dominated by Ontario with only a few BC players sprinkled in....i think the player from Mouat (Etiene) was the highest at #7 for any kid from BC.
I must say i am a little shocked and disappointed our top players seem to be a distinct level lower than our provincial counterparts.
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hoopster



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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:30 pm

A lot has to do with starting kids in programs at a young age. Most hockey players start at ages 4-5, with 2-3 times a week on the ice in Canada. So we are quite dominant globally in hockey. When do we start basketball? Some hoops programs start at age 7 in BC, but often they only practice once a week usually with a parent coaching.
If we took that same group of kids at age 7 and had them play/develop their basketball skills 3 times a week with an experienced coach what would they look like in high school. Like the best American and some Ontario players, but I think we already have a few of these players in BC also. We could do a better job if developing talent.

Exposure also is also factor, look at Provincial teams, we have quite a few all-stars at Nationals. We have some players in BC that should be top 10 in Canada and we will see this at Nationals this summer. Why isn't David Wagner on this list as a top 12 at least?? He made the National cadet team. Don't give NPH and flagrant fouls too much credit as they do not get out to BC and they rely on information that is sent to them second hand.

I just tried to look up National all-starts at U15 and U17's 2010 but the link is not working for the awards. I know Wagner, Bunce, Goodwin, Smythe were 2 years ago, going back a few years Olynk, Trasolini, Sacre? have all been National level all-stars.
PS the 3 "Ontario players" that are in the McDonalds all-start game all go to US Prep schools. Are they really Canadian players?

Jimmy Ralph is ranked at #12 (Raymond Alberta) above all BC players. He is good, but would be marginal making the starting 5 on a team BC all-start team. I think he is definetly a top 10 player if he lived in BC. Again no Wagner.
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okanaganbball



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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:58 pm

As the poster above mentioned, kids start early in Ontario. An Ontario Provincial team coach was once asked to compare BC and Ontario, and he replied that where our players are at in grade 8, their players are at in approximately grade 4.
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ballinismyhobby



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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:00 pm

Wow, he actually described it like that? I think it is a lot closer but the future is bright as Drive and other clubs are starting early and theres kid playing from the age of 5 which is good.
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hoop4life



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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:37 pm

hoopster wrote:
A lot has to do with starting kids in programs at a young age. Most hockey players start at ages 4-5, with 2-3 times a week on the ice in Canada. So we are quite dominant globally in hockey. When do we start basketball? Some hoops programs start at age 7 in BC, but often they only practice once a week usually with a parent coaching.
If we took that same group of kids at age 7 and had them play/develop their basketball skills 3 times a week with an experienced coach what would they look like in high school. Like the best American and some Ontario players, but I think we already have a few of these players in BC also. We could do a better job if developing talent.

Exposure also is also factor, look at Provincial teams, we have quite a few all-stars at Nationals. We have some players in BC that should be top 10 in Canada and we will see this at Nationals this summer. Why isn't David Wagner on this list as a top 12 at least?? He made the National cadet team. Don't give NPH and flagrant fouls too much credit as they do not get out to BC and they rely on information that is sent to them second hand.

I just tried to look up National all-starts at U15 and U17's 2010 but the link is not working for the awards. I know Wagner, Bunce, Goodwin, Smythe were 2 years ago, going back a few years Olynk, Trasolini, Sacre? have all been National level all-stars.
PS the 3 "Ontario players" that are in the McDonalds all-start game all go to US Prep schools. Are they really Canadian players?

Jimmy Ralph is ranked at #12 (Raymond Alberta) above all BC players. He is good, but would be marginal making the starting 5 on a team BC all-start team. I think he is definetly a top 10 player if he lived in BC. Again no Wagner.

You are very right. Those websites are just starting to put players outside of Ontario in the rankings. I remember I saw these Canadian rankings two years ago, and every single player on the list was from Ontario. I do agree that Ontario is producing more talent that BC is, but should it really count that a large majority of their players play prep in the states? If you look at the number of Ontario players that have played their whole high school careers in Ontario who have gone Div. 1, I don't think the ratio is that much higher than BC. Yes the number of them is higher, but they also have 3x as many people as we do. And it must help that Ontario has a grade 13 or something like that. Why are guys that are in grade 11 there put in the 2013 class? Kids there get an extra year if they want.
I honestly think that if we took our top high school teams in BC and played in a tournament against Ontario's top high school teams, it would be a tough battle.
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Lefon Jang



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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:15 pm

U17 Boys Basketball National championship

BC VS ONTARIO

http://www.sportscanada.tv/index.php/day-3-u17-bc-vs-ontario

How much better are they, you be the judge!
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Mark Scott



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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:20 pm


Last year when I was attending a grade 7 school tournament in Ontario (with teams from all over Canada, including Ontario). I wanted to see the level of local basketball in the early grades, so I watched a league game between two of the top grade 6 club teams in Ontario (U12). Boy did I get an eye full! These were the top-ranked teams at that age group in the province (#2 and #3 ranked teams). Not only was the skill level much higher than the grade 7s but the level of aggressiveness was closer to kids in grade 8. These kids were even better than kids I had seen play at high-level camps throughout the US.

A couple knowledgeable coaches who attended with me felt that only one or two players in our tournament could have even played competitively with the grade 6 players. I had to agree.

There will always be exceptions, but the level of basketball in Ontario is higher (you can see it in the # of D1 commits), which can only partially be attributed to a difference in population. This was not always the case.

Constructive solutions anyone?
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Coach.T



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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:35 am

Its true elementary kids in Ontario and the States are better then the kids in BC.
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Coach.T



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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:36 am

The Grassroots Canadian team out of Ontario won the championship in Las Vegas I think two years ago, I think Onatrio is actually one of the best in North America when it comes to basketball
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insider



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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:58 pm

The biggest difference starts at the grass roots level where Ontario's top club programs have an AAU schedule and the kids are exposed to top competition at an early age. Once these kids hit the high school scene in Ontario a lot of the good players leave for better opportunities in the states b/c Canadian competition just doesn't cut it for them.

I would agree that the actual Ontario provincial team is not better than BC's by that much, but you have to ask the question, "are the best players playing on the Ontario Provincial team?" The answer to that is no. We (BC basketball community) constantly measure BC talent against other provinces according to how our Provincial teams do at Nationals. Personally, I feel, Basketball BC has done nothing to promote basketball in our province.

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Mark Scott



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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:08 pm


I wouldn't be so harsh on Basketball BC. I think they are doing a lot of very good things for basketball. The problem I have with the organization is that its mandate is too wide (though I cannot see what their mandate is on the website). They should focus their limited resources on their areas of comparative advantage, such as coaching training, provincial team training for National Championships (during limited windows to ensure players can continue training with club teams) and general basketball organization and marketing. They should also work closely with club teams to ensure kids get great training and competition outside Basketball BC.
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truth



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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:32 pm

insider wrote:
The biggest difference starts at the grass roots level where Ontario's top club programs have an AAU schedule and the kids are exposed to top competition at an early age. Once these kids hit the high school scene in Ontario a lot of the good players leave for better opportunities in the states b/c Canadian competition just doesn't cut it for them.

I would agree that the actual Ontario provincial team is not better than BC's by that much, but you have to ask the question, "are the best players playing on the Ontario Provincial team?" The answer to that is no. We (BC basketball community) constantly measure BC talent against other provinces according to how our Provincial teams do at Nationals. Personally, I feel, Basketball BC has done nothing to promote basketball in our province.


It has already been said, but Ontario has a much bigger talent pool. Simple math will tell you that there will be more stand-out players in a larger sample group. More players also allows for more infrastructure and more opportunity for players to get noticed. All of this has more to do with why Ontario may be perceived as "ahead".

We have seen great players like Kepkay, Murray, Trasolini, Olynek, Scrubb, and others, all come out of BC in recent years. Ontario, by virtue of population, will always have more.

So while it may be true that not all of the best Ontario players were at Nationals, I think what you did see there,is closer to the truth of how the programs compare.
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Lefon Jang



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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:57 pm

In comparison, BC would be a Single A and Ontario a Triple A. You can’t overlook the population factor and to some degree demographic. We have our talents coming from BC but it’s from a smaller pool than that of Ontario. To think that all the various clubs would come together to better basketball in BC is unrealistic. After all, they’re business entities. Their objective is to make money and in doing so they have to compete against each other. If anything, they’re not pooling all the talents together but to spread them out even thinner.
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Mark Scott



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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:11 pm


Clubs are not going away. In fact they are fulfilling a demand and will likely increase. They will certainly not give up training their elite teams for the whole summer, but I think they would provide a limited window so that Basketball BC could take elite players from all clubs to train during a short, intense period prior to the Nationals. If cooperation doesn't happen then BBC will not get the best players and the BC teams will not be as competitive.
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Trey



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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:49 pm

Other Provinces must have club teams that divert some players from the Provincial Teams. I seriously doubt that other Provinces are going to have their 12 top players on their roster. It is great that players have options if they don't think they will make a Provincial team or don't want to try out for the Provincial team. How many players are who would be candidates for the U17 are opting for Drive and how much worse off will the U17 Provincial team without them? If you add a good player you bump one as well. Either way, it will be a good summer of basketball and hopefully all the teams from BC represent the province well, whether they wear the Provincial jersey or not.
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coachb



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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:30 pm

Just thinking a bit outside the box, but what if the basketball BC resources went into supporting the club programs in the off season and then the provincial teams were pulled from the best club team players?
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Lefon Jang



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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:00 pm

Basketball BC itself is not fully funded. The selected players still have to pay to play. In addition, all the clubs including Basketball BC all compete in the same time frame during summer and often in the same AAU tournaments. There’s no way a club would willingly release its elite players to Basketball BC. Even though the percentage of revenue generated from these elite players is small in comparison to their overall market. Yet most clubs would go all out to have them in their teams because these players hold great marketing value. They’re your name brand in basketball; everyone knows them, we talk about them, and kids want to play in a club that they’re in. It’s all about business!
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Mark Scott



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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:19 pm



If Basketball BC provided training during a limited period of time, say two weeks, leading up to the Nationals, I think the club teams would release players to the BBC provincial teams (and most players would like it). There is a real opportunity for BBC to provide a comprehensive training program for two weeks, where kids from out-of-town stay in the Vancouver area and receive top-level coaching, training and competition. This would be similar to what happens for National teams.

BBC and the clubs need to get together to discuss how a system would work to ensure the best year-round training (BBC only trains players for a limited time, but not in a way that allows kids to play for their clubs too).

The clubs want BBC to be successful at the Nationals and they would be proud to see their players make it (and would be competitive in getting the most on the team). There are probably only a dozen clubs in BC, which is a manageable number to cooperate in some manner with BBC.

Ontario has the same problem with its elite players wanting to play for club teams - I think Grassroots Canada teams would handily beat most Ontario provincial teams. Without some cooperation, we are headed for that kind of separation.
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Trey



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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:31 pm

What you say makes sense, Mark. Junior hockey teams release players to national teams and soccer teams have to let players go if they are asked. The problem is that from what I have heard that BBC and Drive have not been able to coordinate their tryouts whether by circumstance or on purpose.

There is not only competition among basketball clubs but huge competition between other sports and often the best athletes play more than one. This is another reason that it will be difficult to ever have the best players on the Provincial team. Although, from what I have seen of the u17 candidates it will be a very strong squad.
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