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  why is Ontario so far ahead of BC

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coachb



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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:25 am

I will admit up front that I do not have a complete understanding of how the various systems work and someone feel free to correct here, but from looking at posts in the off season it looks to me like the club season and BBC run in many of the same tournaments with the only exception being the national tournament where the provincials teams play. Seems simple run the club teams and not a provincial team from BBC at all and then hold try outs and pull the best players from all the clubs for the BC team. I realize players would not be learning a "system" of play and might be at some disadvantage but what is the goal here? Is it to develop players, and by this I mean as many as possible or is it to promote BBC or some club as being better? Perhaps even the clubs could send their top players to some joint training sessions with BBC?
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Mark Scott



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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:04 pm


Looking back at last summer's national championship results, some games stand out. The BBC Boys U15 team lost by 41 pts to Ontario and 30 pts to Quebec. That is pretty clear evidence that BC is not competitive in that age group. I think these results argue for rethinking how we do things.
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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:58 pm

Mark Scott wrote:

Looking back at last summer's national championship results, some games stand out. The BBC Boys U15 team lost by 41 pts to Ontario and 30 pts to Quebec. That is pretty clear evidence that BC is not competitive in that age group. I think these results argue for rethinking how we do things.

FYI, the last year U15 scene were weak at all clubs. BBC Boys were one of the best collection that we have ever had but that wasn't enough against teams like Quebec/ontario. So your argument that clubs weaned away the talents doesn't hold good for the last year.
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Mark Scott



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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:10 pm


By mentioning the scores, I was not making the point that clubs weaned away talent (that is only part of the problem), I was making the point that BC is not competitive at this level. I am also making the suggestion that we should consider alternatives for achieving our objectives (winning? broad participation? producing top talent?) since the gap seems to be widening.

I do not want to be a harbinger of doom. There are many good things about basketball in BC and some top players making it to D1 (or in P Scrubb's case top CIS) - which is not the only measure but a reasonable one. On the positive side, BC is overrepresented on the Men's National Team, but the evidence points to a widening gap and I do not think we should fool ourselves.
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Mark Scott



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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:46 am


Here are some numbers to chew on.....
The analysis I have done here is not rigorous (and uses a small sample-size), but it does provide some evidence for what many of us know intuitively about the relative strength of basketball in various Canadian provinces. I have based the analysis on the number and share of scholarship commitments (based on population) for Canadians in Division 1 men’s basketball programs.

There are 345 Division 1 schools playing men’s basketball in the NCAA in 2010/11. Each school is permitted 13 four-year scholarships. This means that there are approximately 4,485 scholarships available at any one time or about 1,121 available per year.

I cannot find statistics for the percentage of foreign born players, but using the 79 foreign-born players who played in the 2009 NCAA tournament as a proxy, that would mean that about 9.5% of scholarships went to foreign players with US-born players naturally taking the most with 90.5%.

Canadians were the largest group with 14 athletes representing 1.68% of the players in the NCAA tournament (and 17.72% of foreign total). For greater clarity that is 14 of the 832 scholarships available to the players on the 64 teams (assuming 13 per team).

Coming back to the overall Division 1 numbers, US-born players take 1,015 of the scholarships available each year using the assumptions above. Foreign players take approximately 106 scholarships each year.

According to Hoopstarscanada.com Canadian-born athletes earned 30 division 1 basketball scholarship commitments for the Fall of 2010. They are broken down by province as follows: Ontario (20), Quebec (7), BC (2) and Alberta (1).

On a population basis, the number of division 1 scholarships committed per year breaks down as follows:

Ontario 1 per 660,000 people
Quebec 1 per 1.13 million
BC 1 per 2.265 million
Alberta 1 per 3.72 million
Canada 1 per 1.124 million

Overall, US athletes earn one Division 1 men’s basketball scholarship per year per 302,000 people. It is not surprising that US athletes receive a much larger percentage since the schools are located in the US, and lower-ranked schools usually recruit locally where it would be unusual, though not unheard-of, to find foreign-born players. And of course, the US also produces the best basketball players in the world.

In support of the view that higher-ranked schools recruit more foreign-born players, the 30 Canadians who received scholarships committed to schools with an average year-end ranking of 124 out of the 345 schools in Div 1. Strong Canadian players, not offered scholarships, would likely find themselves playing in the CIS in Canada, rather than lower-ranking US schools.
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spidey



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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:21 pm

Lefon Jang wrote:
U17 Boys Basketball National championship

BC VS ONTARIO

http://www.sportscanada.tv/index.php/day-3-u17-bc-vs-ontario

How much better are they, you be the judge!

some of there guys have AAU commitments neither bullar brother was there
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BChoops2011



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PostSubject: The big picture   Tue May 10, 2011 9:31 pm

The Basketball BC Provincial Team program is obviously working well and contrary to popular belief it has only been getting stronger in recent years. Last summer (2010) they had one of the most successful summers ever with all 4 teams winning a medal at the National Championships. On the girls side they upset the HEAVILY favoured Ontario team in the final to win gold.

The year before in 2009 the U17 Boys team went on a ridiculous cinderella run at the Las Vegas tournament where they were finally defeated by the LBA SeaWolves from Texas led by Perry Jones (if you don't know who that is, watch the 2012 NBA Draft, he is projected to go in the top 5). This was the highest finish ever by a BC team in that tournament. What was even more impressive about that team was the fact that the team did not have any "D1 studs" like many of the previous BC provincial teams (Trasolini, Sacre). They were just solid 1 through 12 and Coach Ebes did a great job with them.

So my question is, why would Basketball BC change anything to accomodate new "for profit" clubs that treat them like competition when they are actually doing better than ever.

What is more interesting is that I heard the overall SuperCamp attendance hit a new high this year which goes to show there is more than enough room for both Basketball BC and the new clubs to exist and development many more players. Basketball in BC is alive and well thanks to Basketball BC and these clubs.
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Mark Scott



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PostSubject: Cooperation   Wed May 11, 2011 1:52 pm

BChoops2011 wrote:
The Basketball BC Provincial Team program is obviously working well and contrary to popular belief it has only been getting stronger in recent years. Last summer (2010) they had one of the most successful summers ever with all 4 teams winning a medal at the National Championships. On the girls side they upset the HEAVILY favoured Ontario team in the final to win gold.

The year before in 2009 the U17 Boys team went on a ridiculous cinderella run at the Las Vegas tournament where they were finally defeated by the LBA SeaWolves from Texas led by Perry Jones (if you don't know who that is, watch the 2012 NBA Draft, he is projected to go in the top 5). This was the highest finish ever by a BC team in that tournament. What was even more impressive about that team was the fact that the team did not have any "D1 studs" like many of the previous BC provincial teams (Trasolini, Sacre). They were just solid 1 through 12 and Coach Ebes did a great job with them.

So my question is, why would Basketball BC change anything to accomodate new "for profit" clubs that treat them like competition when they are actually doing better than ever.

What is more interesting is that I heard the overall SuperCamp attendance hit a new high this year which goes to show there is more than enough room for both Basketball BC and the new clubs to exist and development many more players. Basketball in BC is alive and well thanks to Basketball BC and these clubs.

I am a bit suspicious of people (using a pseudonym) who come on Hooplife with a new account and with their first post slather compliments on a particular person or group. In this case Basketball BC is the beneficiary. I suspect this has something to do with the controversy about how BBC and clubs should cooperate in the coordination of training schedules for provincial teams.

It is not that Basketball BC is undeserving of praise. They do a lot of good for basketball in the province. As BCHoops2011 points out, there have been some resounding successes and there are excellent coaches volunteering their time throughout the system.

There have also been some failures and areas for improvement. While BC did manage a third place finish last year at the Boys U15 Nationals, Ontario embarrassed them with a 40 pt thrashing. No program that gets beat by 40 pts should say there is no room for improvement. 

Basketball training is now much more sophisticated than it was when BBC was formed and more diversified in terms of the breadth of opportunities for players than there was only a decade ago. Basketball training is now available from high quality club programs year-round. 

Ontario’s club system is even more advanced than BC’s. Clubs have created elite programs to train high-level athletes and provide them with exposure in the US where many top players are seeking basketball scholarships. The evidence of their success can be seen in the number of Ontario athletes earning D1 scholarships athletes (much higher per capita than BC). Many of these players have abandoned Canadian high schools and left for elite basketball programs in the US (a risk in BC if we do not develop even better programs here). This is why we see Canadians playing in the McDonald’s All American game. 

So faced with this reality what did Ontario Basketball do? Did they say everything was okay because they were dominating the Nationals anyway? Did they expand their programs to better compete with clubs? I was curious so I called the founder of CIA Bounce, Tony McIntyre, and here is what I found:

By way of background, CIA Bounce is the leading club basketball team in Canada. They have many of Canada’s most promising young basketball players on their elite teams. Their U17 team now plays in the prestigious NIKE EYBL (Elite Youth Basketball League) for top AAU travel teams in the US and their U16 team is the #7 ranked team (and rising) in the US. They are sponsored by Nike and all of their players are high D1 talents. In addition to the teams, they founded the NCAA-certified Caribana Camp at HoopDome in late July where over 150 NCAA and CIS coaches have committed to attend to watch the best players from Ontario and other parts of Canada. 
 
All that to say that this is an elite level program producing outstanding players with high D1 and NBA potential.
 
The better opportunities at clubs like Bounce meant that provincial-level players declined invitations to play for the Ontario provincial teams because it conflicted with AAU events and travel. This meant that Ontario often played at National events without their best players. The provincial teams simply could not provide the opportunities that Bounce was able to provide and players were loyal to their clubs, which had been training them since grade school.

So what did Ontario Basketball do? 

In an enlightened gesture, Ontario Basketball approached McIntyre to propose a training schedule for the provincial teams that would specifically enable Bounce players to play for the provincial teams. As a result, Ontario Basketball works around Bounce’s AAU summer schedule and does not compete in AAU tournaments. Training is mostly during the week (1 4-day session, 3 3-day sessions and 1 2-day session (totaling 15 days) from the end of June to end of July, plus Nationals in early August) and provides a day’s rest prior to any of Bounce’s AAU tournaments. Furthermore, the Ontario team coach often travels to AAU games to watch Bounce players to further his understanding of their players. 

So now Bounce releases its players to play for the provincial team and, in fact, encourages them to play. McIntyre agreed to let me talk openly about his arrangements in the hope it would help progress discussion in the same direction with BC clubs and Basketball BC.
 
In terms of club development and player participation, what happened in Ontario is likely what will happen in BC. BBC needs to respond in a positive and cooperative way to work out an arrangement with clubs to ensure that kids get the best opportunities for their success. 
 
With the rise of excellent club programs in BC, such as DRIVE, 3D, Athelite, One Pass Ahead and allBall (which are only a few years behind Bounce), there will only be more demands on kids’ time and the opportunities outside BBC will only become greater for elite basketball players in BC. This is the first year where many of the best players (in U15 particularly) may not play for the provincial team without some kind of cooperation in place beforehand. 

While getting the best players has not been a significant problem for BBC in the past (with the exception of some key players like Emerson Murray and now Manroop Claire), it will soon become an urgent concern as clubs expand the depth and quality of their programs. I would not like to see BBC resort to pressuring players or offering financial inducements to coerce them to leave their club teams..... cooperation is a better model.

I have heard that BBC thinks it is too late to change their training schedules to accommodate clubs this summer. Yet there are seven weeks before Ontario’s provincial teams even begin training. Why not simply adjust the training schedule so that players can continue to train and play with their club teams and represent the province at Nationals? 

If Basketball BC took the initiative to propose a schedule similar to Ontario's, I believe it would be enthusiastically accepted by BC’s leading clubs.  

How about this?

Training Schedule: June 27-30th, July 3rd-5th, July 12-14, July 20-21, July 28-30. That is a total 15 days of high quality intensive training for the provincial team (and almost exactly the same dates as Ontario)
 
This would allow club players to play and train with their club teams, play in all their AAU summer tournaments against top US clubs. 

Competition and the interests of the young players insist that BBC move quickly to be inclusive of all the players and clubs in BC. 


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VCALUM



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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Wed May 11, 2011 5:57 pm

This is an intriguing discussion and Mark makes some really good suggestions. However, is it not too late for this year? The teams have already been picked.

The bigger question I have, is what is the end game we are trying to get to here? The question started with why Ontario is ahead of BC and the measure I keep hearing about (that apparently makes them better) is exposure and the number of players going D1. Is that the objective? Should it be?

I certainly agree that when it comes to the exposure aspect, Ontario is way ahead. However, I think this has more to do with population and all the ranking services (Flagrant Fouls etc) that have sprung up recently. They are all Ontario based and since there is a much bigger talent pool there, they get the lions share of the attention. Consider too, that the Ontario population is over 13 million compared to BC's 4. The Greater Toronto Area has over half the Ontario population or 1.5 times the population of all of BC. As a whole, Ontario has about 4 times the number of kids enrolled in school.

So, with 4 times the kids, concentrated in one area, it is much easier to organize clubs and other infrastructure to support development than here in BC. So when it comes to exposure, they will always win, because the ranking services are all focused there and coaches will always choose to first go looking where there are more prospects to look at.

We also seem to be focused on "going D1". Again, I think this needs to be put in perspective. About 1% of high school players will go on to play D1 and only about 1% of those will go on to play in the NBA. The numbers for Canada will be way lower than that. So why are we so focused on "exposure" and "going D1" as the measure of success when those goals are unrealistic for the vast majority?

It seems that basketball in BC is suffering from Ontario envy and as a nation we have NCAA envy. So, while I agree that there is nothing wrong with aspiring to reach the highest level, we should keep the realities of our population limitations in mind.

If getting an education is the objective (it should be for most players) there are ample opportunities for many of our players from BC to do that in Canada at what are usually better schools than those in the US. Scholarships may not be full ride, but costs are much lower in Canada to begin with.

So I guess I am saying that, yes we can make it better and Mark has some good suggestions. However, if we always focus on Ontario and the NCAA to compare ourselves, we will probably continue to be disappointed because the realities of the demographics will always be against us.







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Mark Scott



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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Wed May 11, 2011 7:27 pm

I think the U16s and 17s have been selected. The U15s have not been chosen yet, so there is plenty of time to coordinate a schedule that works for club teams. It is simply a matter of sitting down and agreeing a schedule that works for the players. What I have suggested would very likely work for the clubs and players. I mention Ontario Basketball and Bounce because the schedule works for them - it has already been agreed. Why wouldn't it work for Basketball BC for the U15s this year?

There are certainly more objectives in a basketball community than simply D1 commits, but we are talking about Elite teams here, so it is relevant. It is also what many kids want - ask Steve Nash.... You can see from an earlier post I made that BC had 2 D1 commits versus 30 for Ontario. On a per capita basis we are much farther behind than we should be. Ontario has 3.5 times as many D1 commits per capita.
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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Wed May 11, 2011 9:27 pm

Like said, I don't think that it will change any time soon as all eyes will continue to be on Ontario. It is a bigger pond with more fish, so they will get more looks.

I am convinced we have players here that are as good as many of the players that are "going D1". They just don't get the recognition that the ranking sites are giving to the Ontario kids.

I think we also have to accept that there are down years as far as player talent goes. I have heard from more than one source that this last year, BC talent was at a lower point than the last couple of years. So, it may not be wise to base all this on where we are right now.

All the hype is definitely coming from Ontario and again I think that has a lot to do with the ranking sites that have sprung up. Perhaps if they are successful, they will be able to give some more attention to players outside of Ontario. That alone, may change the success of some of our players.
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Trey



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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Thu May 12, 2011 11:36 am

Good points for sure but are there enough players in BC in the mix to require a move to the model adopted by Basketball Ontario to accommodate the club teams? If there were a great number of players not playing for the Provincial teams due to loyalty to clubs then maybe this would be necessary but how many kids who may have made the U17 team didn't try out? Would they have made the team anyways? It's hard to say because as we all know chemistry is as important as raw talent so to say that any player would have made the team is pure speculation. I think Basketball Ontario were losing more players to club teams so had to make the change and I am sure that are still not getting all the best players anyways.

Also, I know that the Provincial teams play in tournaments and showcase events in late June and July prior to the Nationals so to have tryouts right up to late July probably wouldn't work. I don't understand why players on club teams can't simply got to BBC tryouts.it would require the club teams changing their tryout schedules but so be it. The BBC fall and spring camps were posted well in advance allowing the players trying out to organize their other activities and school obligations and the spacing of the tryouts allowed club team commitments to be met. There are a few former drive players on the U17 team this year and they have made the switch so if a kid wants to have an opportunity to wear his Provinces colours he certainly can so there really isn't an either/or scenario.

Before we attempt to totally reinvent the wheel here we should look at the problem, if there is one, from a BC perspective and not simply import something that worked in Ontario where population and AAU opportunities are factors that we don't have to consider here.
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PostSubject: Re: why is Ontario so far ahead of BC   Today at 7:11 pm

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