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 VC vs Saints

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Sportvictoria



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:11 pm

Mark Scott wrote:
edward wrote:
M-5 wrote:
the independent schools applied to get into the vancouver schools league and were shut down.

I guess it is because they have no catchment boundary, school population etc etc. Wrca has a limitation on their school population. I think they have around 350 from KG to grade 12 as against 1150 of Saints and 1069 of VC.

Edit: Wrca is able to get away with the catchment restriction whereas VC and saints couldn't. However, I foresee wrca in 5 yrs going down to AA or A from their current AAA.

Public high school boundaries in BC are open, and students can attend any school in the province free of charge, if there is space.


'School boundaries' and 'catchment areas' are two totally different things.
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Mark Scott



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:27 pm

Sportvictoria wrote:
Mark Scott wrote:
edward wrote:
M-5 wrote:
the independent schools applied to get into the vancouver schools league and were shut down.

I guess it is because they have no catchment boundary, school population etc etc. Wrca has a limitation on their school population. I think they have around 350 from KG to grade 12 as against 1150 of Saints and 1069 of VC.

Edit: Wrca is able to get away with the catchment restriction whereas VC and saints couldn't. However, I foresee wrca in 5 yrs going down to AA or A from their current AAA.

Public high school boundaries in BC are open, and students can attend any school in the province free of charge, if there is space.


'School boundaries' and 'catchment areas' are two totally different things.

That is a distinction without a difference. As of September 2003, students can attend any school in the province where there is space. That means students can attend a school in their “home” district or in any other district (public or independent).
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basketballfan1



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:32 pm

Depends on how you define the word "can". Most kids can't afford to go to a private school. The private schools can now offer kids they want in their schools free tuition and room and board. In doing that, the public schools are no longer on the same playing field as the private schools. I don't understand why the private schools do not have their own championship as they are all on the same playing field with each other.
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Sportvictoria



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:39 pm

basketballfan1 wrote:
Depends on how you define the word "can". Most kids can't afford to go to a private school. The private schools can now offer kids they want in their schools free tuition and room and board. In doing that, the public schools are no longer on the same playing field as the private schools. I don't understand why the private schools do not have their own championship as they are all on the same playing field with each other.


A separate private school/public school championship is closer than you think.

It's already in place in a lot of US states.

I personally don't want to see it happen but as things continue to happen, we get closer to a vote on it.

Lyle Dhur
Sportvictoria
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basketballfan1



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:58 pm

Sportvictoria wrote:
basketballfan1 wrote:
Depends on how you define the word "can". Most kids can't afford to go to a private school. The private schools can now offer kids they want in their schools free tuition and room and board. In doing that, the public schools are no longer on the same playing field as the private schools. I don't understand why the private schools do not have their own championship as they are all on the same playing field with each other.


A separate private school/public school championship is closer than you think.

It's already in place in a lot of US states.

I personally don't want to see it happen but as things continue to happen, we get closer to a vote on it.

Lyle Dhur
Sportvictoria

What are your reasons for not wanting a separate championship? Doesn't it make the most sense?
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Sportvictoria



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:04 pm

basketballfan1 wrote:
Sportvictoria wrote:
basketballfan1 wrote:
Depends on how you define the word "can". Most kids can't afford to go to a private school. The private schools can now offer kids they want in their schools free tuition and room and board. In doing that, the public schools are no longer on the same playing field as the private schools. I don't understand why the private schools do not have their own championship as they are all on the same playing field with each other.


A separate private school/public school championship is closer than you think.

It's already in place in a lot of US states.

I personally don't want to see it happen but as things continue to happen, we get closer to a vote on it.

Lyle Dhur
Sportvictoria

What are your reasons for not wanting a separate championship? Doesn't it make the most sense?


Does not 'make sense' but I feel it's coming to a head. I'd like to have everyone playing and operating under the same rules with nobody trying to 'skirt' rules. Pie-in-the-sky thoughts given the current environment.
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Pooch



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:31 pm

Basketball fan, kids can go to any public school they want as long as there is room, is what was meant.
The only real potential issue with the private schools is that they could, should they choose to, give scholarships, etc. Not sure if any of the ones who take basketball seriously have any boarding capability anymore.
If one of those schools was to offer a scholarship of any kind then that would be a clear case of recruiting and it would not be hard to prove. It's not something that kids or parents can keep quiet...it would be a source of a lot of talk amongst their friends, ex-teammates, etc.
I know that VC does not offer scholarships to athletes and has not even been accused of that in decades. That doesn't mean kids haven't chosen to go there...just like they have to Kits, Palmer, St. Georges, Terry Fox, Pitt, etc.
I am not so sure about the others, but I think it is very rare and if it is being done then go after them for recruiting.
I think a move to separate the publics and privates would be a bad one.
The BC Tournament has fabulous tradition and I believe it is a major factor in why more of our kids have not left for prep schools in the US. It is happening in big numbers all across the rest of Canada.
I also think that if you push the privates off, we might see some of them go the prep school route and begin offering scholarships, potentially siphoning off some of the top kids in the area and not being shy about it.
We have something wonderful going on here and the best answer would be for people to get together to try to make things better and more co-operative instead of going off into armed camps.
The only real area of discontent is the LM zone. Let the privates into the local leagues and have everyone agree to work under the same rules and guidelines. At least see if it can be worked out. Seems to work just fine in all other zones.
It won't happen with the current leadership of the LM, but with new blood it certainly could.
The LM zone privates, by the way, have had a distinct lack of success at the BC's...VC last won 45 years ago and Saints have won once, so fears about their dominance seem overblown.
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Sportvictoria



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:37 pm

Pooch wrote:
Basketball fan, kids can go to any public school they want as long as there is room, is what was meant.
The only real potential issue with the private schools is that they could, should they choose to, give scholarships, etc. Not sure if any of the ones who take basketball seriously have any boarding capability anymore.
If one of those schools was to offer a scholarship of any kind then that would be a clear case of recruiting and it would not be hard to prove. It's not something that kids or parents can keep quiet...it would be a source of a lot of talk amongst their friends, ex-teammates, etc.
I know that VC does not offer scholarships to athletes and has not even been accused of that in decades. That doesn't mean kids haven't chosen to go there...just like they have to Kits, Palmer, St. Georges, Terry Fox, Pitt, etc.
I am not so sure about the others, but I think it is very rare and if it is being done then go after them for recruiting.
I think a move to separate the publics and privates would be a bad one.
The BC Tournament has fabulous tradition and I believe it is a major factor in why more of our kids have not left for prep schools in the US. It is happening in big numbers all across the rest of Canada.
I also think that if you push the privates off, we might see some of them go the prep school route and begin offering scholarships, potentially siphoning off some of the top kids in the area and not being shy about it.
We have something wonderful going on here and the best answer would be for people to get together to try to make things better and more co-operative instead of going off into armed camps.
The only real area of discontent is the LM zone. Let the privates into the local leagues and have everyone agree to work under the same rules and guidelines. At least see if it can be worked out. Seems to work just fine in all other zones.
It won't happen with the current leadership of the LM, but with new blood it certainly could.
The LM zone privates, by the way, have had a distinct lack of success at the BC's...VC last won 45 years ago and Saints have won once, so fears about their dominance seem overblown.


Scholarships are not given... but 'athletic bursaries' are.

The discontent reaches a lot farther than the Lower Mainland - I can guarantee that.
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Pooch



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:06 pm

What exactly is an athletic bursary?
Do you have any examples of these actually being given?
Are private schools actually going out and offering financial help to kids? If so, nail them, but don't just make claims along the lines of urban myths.
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basketballfan1



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:35 pm

Can somebody explain the circumstances of how Bol Kong ended up at Saints?
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Sim



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:49 pm

They should also setup a public championship for recruiters. These 'best minds' in the LM can scheme on how to recruit but they can't figure out how to put together the LM draw. Can't stand their hypocrisy
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Naismith



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:57 pm

basketballfan1 wrote:
Can somebody explain the circumstances of how Bol Kong ended up at Saints?

And Emerson Murray.......and Gurjot Jhaj......and.....
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Sim



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:04 pm

The public schools are worse when it comes to recruiting. Every LM team to win a provincial title over the past 30 years has recruited.
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M-5



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:27 pm

Good coaches/programs attract good players. Hence why Kits, Saints, VC, WRCA, Pitt, Fox, Kelowna, Burnaby South, and Palmer get good players going to their schools from grade 8 (or 10 for kelowna), and why they get transfers from weaker programs later on. Honestly, program success draws attention. Its not the coaches going out and doing anything underhanded. I'm not sure about the Bol Kong circumstance, or how 6 new provincial teamers appeared on VC's grade 10 roster 2 years ago, but I'd bet that no coaches or team parents went out to recruit them.

Personally, I'm all for having strong teams to play against, be it a school scrutinized for "recruiting" or one that has a squeaky-clean record. Having better teams pushes basketball in BC further, and the lower mainland regulatory body should, in the interest of strengthening their tournament, find a way to get Saints included. They are afterall the second best team in the zone, and 12 teams make it....
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hoopfan



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:48 pm

Naismith wrote:
basketballfan1 wrote:
Can somebody explain the circumstances of how Bol Kong ended up at Saints?

And Emerson Murray.......and Gurjot Jhaj......and.....

This somebody would know how to explain the circumstances of how Steve Nash ended up at SMU; Scrubbs, Solomon, Penman and Khan at VC. He or she would probably tell you why Jeremy Lin did not receive any scholarship????
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okanaganbball



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:14 pm

M-5 wrote:
Good coaches/programs attract good players. Hence why Kits, Saints, VC, WRCA, Pitt, Fox, Kelowna, Burnaby South, and Palmer get good players going to their schools from grade 8 (or 10 for kelowna), and why they get transfers from weaker programs later on. Honestly, program success draws attention. Its not the coaches going out and doing anything underhanded. I'm not sure about the Bol Kong circumstance, or how 6 new provincial teamers appeared on VC's grade 10 roster 2 years ago, but I'd bet that no coaches or team parents went out to recruit them.

Personally, I'm all for having strong teams to play against, be it a school scrutinized for "recruiting" or one that has a squeaky-clean record. Having better teams pushes basketball in BC further, and the lower mainland regulatory body should, in the interest of strengthening their tournament, find a way to get Saints included. They are afterall the second best team in the zone, and 12 teams make it....

You think there hasn't been any recruiting done in BC? It's all just been success breeding success?
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Sportvictoria



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:22 pm

hoopfan wrote:
Naismith wrote:
basketballfan1 wrote:
Can somebody explain the circumstances of how Bol Kong ended up at Saints?

And Emerson Murray.......and Gurjot Jhaj......and.....

This somebody would know how to explain the circumstances of how Steve Nash ended up at SMU; Scrubbs, Solomon, Penman and Khan at VC. He or she would probably tell you why Jeremy Lin did not receive any scholarship????


I can tell you that Steve Nash WAS NOT recruited. And yes, I have inside knowledge there.


Lyle Dhur
Sportvictoria
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CStone



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:36 am

So explain this to me cause i might be missing something here. So burnaby/new west gets 3 teams , vancouver gets 6 and richmond gets 2. So those 11 teams fight and kick all year to make it into the tourney, so what kind of message are you sending to kids. That if you have money you can do whatever you want.

Don't reply saying the best teams should be in the tourney cause that excuse is over done. Cause if that is your excuse why have a lower mainlands, fraser valley's or islands and just go by Howie's rankings.
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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:52 am

Gurjote Jhaj was told by his Richmond High coach, that he might be smart to look elsewhere after his grade 10 year. He did, and went to Saints...Saints did nothing to try to attract him prior to that.
The Scrubb brothers were heavily recruited I am sure...by their dad...who teaches and coaches at that school.
Recruiting is the most over-used word on this site...yes, schools DO attract and some turn kids off...get over this conspiracy crap.
To say that every public school who has won a title recruited is ludicrous...the odds are that NONE did. Did they all have transfer players? Probably.
If recruiting is so rampant, where is the kid who was approached and didn't want to go? Wouldn't they speak up?...seems strange to me if it is happening...especially with the heated atmosphere.
Anyway, the conspiracy theorists will never stop making these false claims...to them no player ever left a school without being recruited and they will never change their minds. All the good coaches are cheaters and the ones who do a mediocre job are unsung heroes in their minds. Strange to me, but it seems things will never change for some.
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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:54 am

C Stone...thanks for the most ludicrous post ever made.
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Sim



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:07 am

Cstone, the elite teams in Van, Rich, Bby/NW(who also heavily attract players) don't fight and kick all year....they coast to the Mainland's b/c they've monopolized the majority of the talent in their zones.

The only fair system is to have a play-in for the 12th spot...which includes 1 team from each of the 4 LM Zones(ie.Ind-2,Van-7, Rich-3, Bby/NW-3). The "sharpest minds" who run the LM haven't figured out such a simple solution b/c they don't want to.
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CStone



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:24 am

Pooch wrote:
C Stone...thanks for the most ludicrous post ever made.

thanks pooch glad you liked it.

Look I'm a coach of a public school and I'm not a teacher so i give up my time to coach and know the rules that if we aren't in the top 2 of richmond we aren't going to move on.

So what i don't get is why the hell the saints cry foul when they cant get into the mainlands cause they knew the rules, beat VC twice and your in. But they couldn't do it so sorry but here beat up on some lower end teams and go into a tourney that you couldn't qualify for.

I know your going to come back saying but they are in the top 10 in the province. Well good job but you lost the 2 games you needed to win.


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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:38 am

Cstone, I'm glad we got good people like you coaching. There's no perfect system...but I think we should be as inclusive as possible. Unfortunately some public coaches who've attracted players in the past and continue to do so...play politics at the expense of the kids.

It hurts our game when a kid like Emerson Murray(playing Pac-12) was the reigning MVP and didn't make it to the provincial tourney. We(local hoops junkies) lost out on him being featured all over the media leading up to the provincials . It would've led to greater exposure for our great game. It would've attracted the casual fan....instead, we lose potential kids/coaches to other sports b/c they're profiled better(ie.Lions, Caps, Giants or Canadians).

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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:40 am

It is just a question of fairness in my mind.
VC and Saints don't choose to play in a 2 team league...they are forced into it by not being allowed into the Vancouver league.
It appears right now that those two teams just might be the two best in BC and certainly both have a legitimate shot at winning it all.
Most people believe that the best teams should have a chance to qualify for the championship all strive for.
If you don't believe the best teams should be in, then your argument is fine, but saying that now all Saints have to do to qualify for the BC's is beat up on some weaker teams sounds a little strange to me. Also, saying that the teams in other areas have worked hard somehow implies Saints haven't. I would bet that they have committed more and worked every bit as hard or they wouldn't be as good as they are.
I personally like the idea that the top teams get a shot and believe that is part of what makes the BC's such a great tournament.
To me the greatest sports show of all is the NCAA tournament and for that the organizers go way out of their way to make sure the top teams qualify. Some leagues qualify most of their teams, while others get few because of the perceived relative strength or weakness of their schedules... and what a show it is!!

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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:59 am

Pooch wrote:
It is just a question of fairness in my mind.
VC and Saints don't choose to play in a 2 team league...they are forced into it by not being allowed into the Vancouver league.
It appears right now that those two teams just might be the two best in BC and certainly both have a legitimate shot at winning it all.
Most people believe that the best teams should have a chance to qualify for the championship all strive for.

I think one of the questions that many are also asking is; do the Irish and Saints have good programs because they develop players or because players transfer into their programs? I have seen a few coaches that thrive on transfers and are wll respected at their schools as being great coaches, when the reality is kids are transferring into that program and making them look good. Where would VC be ranked without Solomon and Penman? Where would the Saints, PM & last years South team be without their transfers? So sometimes it is a programs reputation that attracts kids, sometimes it is players on the team and occasionally it is the coaches and team supporters. If VC and the Saints want "fair" treatment then perhaps they should say no to the transfers, unless the family is actually moving into their neighborhood.
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