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 VC vs Saints

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Sim



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:03 am

hoopster, I think it'd be only fair that we ask all of the other public teams to say no as well....and return all their provincial championships.
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hoopster



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:10 am

Good point Sim, some schools have a history of Provincial team caliber players transferring into their programs, both public and private.
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Sportvictoria



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:08 am

Pooch wrote:
Gurjote Jhaj was told by his Richmond High coach, that he might be smart to look elsewhere after his grade 10 year. He did, and went to Saints...Saints did nothing to try to attract him prior to that.
The Scrubb brothers were heavily recruited I am sure...by their dad...who teaches and coaches at that school.
Recruiting is the most over-used word on this site...yes, schools DO attract and some turn kids off...get over this conspiracy crap.
To say that every public school who has won a title recruited is ludicrous...the odds are that NONE did. Did they all have transfer players? Probably.
If recruiting is so rampant, where is the kid who was approached and didn't want to go? Wouldn't they speak up?...seems strange to me if it is happening...especially with the heated atmosphere.
Anyway, the conspiracy theorists will never stop making these false claims...to them no player ever left a school without being recruited and they will never change their minds. All the good coaches are cheaters and the ones who do a mediocre job are unsung heroes in their minds. Strange to me, but it seems things will never change for some.


Pooch,

Are you actually claiming that recruiting doesn't happen by St. George's (program or friends of the program) or any other school?

And are you doing this and trying to be serious about it?

Lyle Dhur
Sportvictoria
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GregOden



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:19 am

Pooch wrote:
It is just a question of fairness in my mind.
VC and Saints don't choose to play in a 2 team league...they are forced into it by not being allowed into the Vancouver league.
It appears right now that those two teams just might be the two best in BC and certainly both have a legitimate shot at winning it all.
Most people believe that the best teams should have a chance to qualify for the championship all strive for.
If you don't believe the best teams should be in, then your argument is fine, but saying that now all Saints have to do to qualify for the BC's is beat up on some weaker teams sounds a little strange to me. Also, saying that the teams in other areas have worked hard somehow implies Saints haven't. I would bet that they have committed more and worked every bit as hard or they wouldn't be as good as they are.
I personally like the idea that the top teams get a shot and believe that is part of what makes the BC's such a great tournament.
To me the greatest sports show of all is the NCAA tournament and for that the organizers go way out of their way to make sure the top teams qualify. Some leagues qualify most of their teams, while others get few because of the perceived relative strength or weakness of their schedules... and what a show it is!!


....more of a direct quote from this..... "Most people believe that the best teams should have a chance to qualify for the championship all strive for." ..............Yes, that is why Saints had a chance, to bad they couldn't find a way to win. and I know your gunna say something ridiculous again trying to back up saints, because clearly you went to/currently go to that school, or have close family/friends that did and are very bitter that when you played, or are playing now, because your team probably lost to VC too.

It is obvious that all good programs have transfer players as well as they do recruit to an extent, maybe not the extent that is considered "illegal", or punishimnet worthy, but schools like Saints, VC, Kits, Pitt, Fox, WRCA, Kelowna and all other schools with a constantly strong program, all have kids that come to play from outside of the catchment zone... example even a public school kelowna... if there was no transferring kelowna would not have almost its entire starting line-up. These players all transfered for a reason, whether is be recruiting by the coaches, other players, alumni, family, friends etc.
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Pooch



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:20 pm

I don't have a clue as to whether Saints have ever recruited a player in their history.
My point is that I do believe that good programs attract kids and the people directly involved with those programs very very rarely approach kids. Most never have. If they did, I think they would get caught.
Why is it so hard to believe that people make choices? Believe it or not some programs do work harder have better coaches, etc. And you are right that when there is success sometimes the degree to which that program is better than others may get overblown. Oh well..such is life. There will always be the critics who claim that all winning programs are cheaters to counterbalance that.
Do parents talk? Do kids talk? Do I even have to answer that? Aren't WE talking about the game we love just like they do? I do agree with you that if you consider that recruiting then of course until we can put muzzles on people, not publish scores and not allow people to watch the games then that type of "recruitment" will exist. Kids and parents who are big fans of the game watch North Carolina play and fantasize about their son playing there...is that recruiting by North Carolina? Yep, but is it anything they can or do control? Is there anything wrong with it? Not in my mind. I want my son to know what his options are and to be allowed, like everyone else in society to choose what is best for him. If we happen to pay attention to what different schools offer and decide one is better for him that doesn't happen to be next door to our house, then I hope we have the option of letting him choose that school.
I agree completely with you guys that if a coach or program is approaching kids, punish them. All they truly have to offer in most cases is a different coaching style, and people who care can see that without being approached.
Saints may be evil...I don't know..., but if they are go get them.
I cannot say that no one anywhere has ever been approached. I choose instead to believe that programs dedicated to excellence and having good coaches are something to be praised and not to be attacked for things that are barely even rumours in almost all cases.
It is also strange to me that the private schools are the targets of all of this. We all know that kids transfer legally in public schools, too. We also know that all the most successful public programs are the recipients of transfers.
I am not out to get any of these programs, public or private.
I think every family has the right to make the choice that is best for them and think that you are correct in believing that past success will 'recruit" to some extent. It may be that success came for reasons that will really pay off for the kid choosing that school. I think that coaches of the calibre seen at many of those schools ARE the reason the whole thing started and do offer something different than many others in terms of approach and expertise.
To your other point...as I stated before I happen to believe that the best teams should have a chance at the championship and do not see that as being terribly ridiculous. It should be, however, an equal chance and being forced into a two team league does not provide for that. The guidelines were clear for getting a second chance...if the team could show a "reasonable" argument that it is in the top three of the zone then they should have some path to prove it. They clearly qualified under that and got what was fair. Money, had nothing to do with it.
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M-5



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PostSubject: Hell yes!   Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:58 pm

Sim wrote:
Cstone, the elite teams in Van, Rich, Bby/NW(who also heavily attract players) don't fight and kick all year....they coast to the Mainland's b/c they've monopolized the majority of the talent in their zones.

The only fair system is to have a play-in for the 12th spot...which includes 1 team from each of the 4 LM Zones(ie.Ind-2,Van-7, Rich-3, Bby/NW-3). The "sharpest minds" who run the LM haven't figured out such a simple solution b/c they don't want to.

This would be a great solution and I think Sim is absolutely right. The governing body likely doesn't want it because it would have more benefit to a zone with a single birth (Independent) then zones with multiple births (all the other lower mainland zones). If I recall correctly, the lowermainlands use to be a 16 team tournament but the number got cut down after Magee played parts of a game with only 4 players due to fouls and illness. I'm sure that the integrity of the tournament would not be lost if a "wild-card" type system like Sim describes was used.

Thanks for coaching CStone. High school basketball in BC relies heavily on committed people like you.
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M-5



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:02 pm

okanaganbball wrote:
M-5 wrote:
Good coaches/programs attract good players. Hence why Kits, Saints, VC, WRCA, Pitt, Fox, Kelowna, Burnaby South, and Palmer get good players going to their schools from grade 8 (or 10 for kelowna), and why they get transfers from weaker programs later on. Honestly, program success draws attention. Its not the coaches going out and doing anything underhanded. I'm not sure about the Bol Kong circumstance, or how 6 new provincial teamers appeared on VC's grade 10 roster 2 years ago, but I'd bet that no coaches or team parents went out to recruit them.

Personally, I'm all for having strong teams to play against, be it a school scrutinized for "recruiting" or one that has a squeaky-clean record. Having better teams pushes basketball in BC further, and the lower mainland regulatory body should, in the interest of strengthening their tournament, find a way to get Saints included. They are afterall the second best team in the zone, and 12 teams make it....

You think there hasn't been any recruiting done in BC? It's all just been success breeding success?

Of course not! But for the most part, I think players don't get recruited.
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CharlesII



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:40 pm

Sim wrote:
Cstone, I'm glad we got good people like you coaching. There's no perfect system...but I think we should be as inclusive as possible. Unfortunately some public coaches who've attracted players in the past and continue to do so...play politics at the expense of the kids.

It hurts our game when a kid like Emerson Murray(playing Pac-12) was the reigning MVP and didn't make it to the provincial tourney. We(local hoops junkies) lost out on him being featured all over the media leading up to the provincials . It would've led to greater exposure for our great game. It would've attracted the casual fan....instead, we lose potential kids/coaches to other sports b/c they're profiled better(ie.Lions, Caps, Giants or Canadians).


How is it fair that Saints is crying over the fact that they didn't get in? The fact is, they couldn't get it done against VC and those rankings conducted by Sport Victoria or Howard are garbage. They don't mean anything. So because, they're "ranked" 3rd or 4th in the province means they get to cry and try to get themselves into the LM's? Would it not be a greater story to see a team that you have NEVER heard of before in your life, make an impact at the tourny? Like a cinderalla story? I'll take a cinderalla story over Saints any day.

As for your statement on Emerson, he wasn't even the best player in his grad class in BC to be honest with you. Yeah, he's in the NCAA but he gets 3 minutes a game. He hit a game winner on VC for the title in his grade 11 year but what did he do the other 39 minutes during that game? I think he had only like 9 points including the game winner.
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shoota



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:40 pm

Recruit or not recruit? All the good programs are guilty to an extent, technically no, ethically oh yeah baby! (eg. the Privates (especially) would let a very marginal student in just because they can chuck a rock while a kid with great grades and can play the trombone can take a number).

Re: independent league getting two berths. I've observed this argument for many years. There's really merits on both sides of the issue but I don't believe any changes to the system should be allowed to occur in the same year for a team that just got bounced (is it that they wouldn't have raised the issue if they won?).

And for those who talk about doing it for the kids...well maybe this ridiculous situation is just the right thing for the kids. They can see how real life works you know...with the petty politics and nepotism.

In the end, it really doesn't matter. If the kid is really that great, they'll get the scholarships no doubt no matter where they play.

My prediction for this year, if Saints is successful in getting through, it'll be them or Kelowna who will win it all. Both are solid teams. Pitt doesn't have enough talent and I don't know why they're ranked so high. VC has good talent and depth but their me first "HOGS" will ruin the flow and ultimately team chemistry. Tamaniwis has a smaller chance. No other teams matter.

Good luck to all teams.
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asiseeit



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PostSubject: nummnuts vs nummnuts   Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:37 pm

At the end of the day, the money ($) speaks. Where do you draw the line. How do you compete with the almighty dollar? Vc and the Saints were made for each other. if they are both going to play that game, only one is going to win. So be it. Vc is in, and St George, you will have to spend more money next year.
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ronh_pm



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:24 am

TextBook wrote:
Sim wrote:
Cstone, I'm glad we got good people like you coaching. There's no perfect system...but I think we should be as inclusive as possible. Unfortunately some public coaches who've attracted players in the past and continue to do so...play politics at the expense of the kids.

It hurts our game when a kid like Emerson Murray(playing Pac-12) was the reigning MVP and didn't make it to the provincial tourney. We(local hoops junkies) lost out on him being featured all over the media leading up to the provincials . It would've led to greater exposure for our great game. It would've attracted the casual fan....instead, we lose potential kids/coaches to other sports b/c they're profiled better(ie.Lions, Caps, Giants or Canadians).


As for your statement on Emerson, he wasn't even the best player in his grad class in BC to be honest with you. Yeah, he's in the NCAA but he gets 3 minutes a game. He hit a game winner on VC for the title in his grade 11 year but what did he do the other 39 minutes during that game? I think he had only like 9 points including the game winner.

Emmerson (not the reigning MVP) was injured in the Saints semi-final game against Kamloops, a game in which he scored 26 points. Previous to that he put up 16 with 15 rebounds against Yale, 18 and 8 against Dover Bay and 13 and 10 against Fleetwood on the Tuesday play in game.

His production in the final was limited by his minutes (13:29 in first half and less in the second - I dont have the stat handy) because of the injury sustained.

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fatheads



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:39 pm

CStone wrote:
"if you have money you can do whatever you want."

"Don't reply saying the best teams should be in the tourney cause that excuse is over done."

I think you're so delusional you've answered your own question and don't even know it. You clearly aren't accepting any other answers.

Money over everything.

Welcome to the real world. Oh right, don't you still drive your mom's car?


Last edited by fatheads on Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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fatheads



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:00 pm

TextBook wrote:

As for your statement on Emerson, he wasn't even the best player in his grad class in BC to be honest with you. Yeah, he's in the NCAA but he gets 3 minutes a game. He hit a game winner on VC for the title in his grade 11 year but what did he do the other 39 minutes during that game? I think he had only like 9 points including the game winner.

http://hooplife.canadian-forum.com/t426p15-standouts-of-the-class-of-2013-gr-10#4921
TextBook wrote:
Why must you kids/adults/seniors bring profanity to a forum regarding HIGHSCHOOL basketball, we're not talking about the NBA here, these kids deserve some respect.

You're discrediting Emerson cause he gets 3 minutes a game in NCAA Div 1 play. A kid who hit a game winner in a Championship game! Are you mentally insane?

When was the last time you played NCAA? Oh right, you had that makeup injury that prevented you from going. I remember now, you were supposed to be the next Larry Bird. Too bad.

Are you jealous or do you have a terrible double standard?

http://hooplife.canadian-forum.com/t426p15-standouts-of-the-class-of-2013-gr-10#4921
TextBook wrote:
Heck, I'll go and cancel my account because this is ridiculous seeing kids with no respect for one another.
We're still waiting. Don't worry guys, Textbook is a man of his words. I'm sure he will follow through with this threat. Oh how we will be devastated with out him.
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CharlesII



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:03 pm

fatheads wrote:
TextBook wrote:

As for your statement on Emerson, he wasn't even the best player in his grad class in BC to be honest with you. Yeah, he's in the NCAA but he gets 3 minutes a game. He hit a game winner on VC for the title in his grade 11 year but what did he do the other 39 minutes during that game? I think he had only like 9 points including the game winner.

http://hooplife.canadian-forum.com/t426p15-standouts-of-the-class-of-2013-gr-10#4921
TextBook wrote:
Why must you kids/adults/seniors bring profanity to a forum regarding HIGHSCHOOL basketball, we're not talking about the NBA here, these kids deserve some respect.

You're discrediting Emerson cause he gets 3 minutes a game in NCAA Div 1 play. A kid who hit a game winner in a Championship game! Are you mentally insane?

When was the last time you played NCAA? Oh right, you had that makeup injury that prevented you from going. I remember now, you were supposed to be the next Larry Bird. Too bad.

http://hooplife.canadian-forum.com/t426p15-standouts-of-the-class-of-2013-gr-10#4921
TextBook wrote:
Heck, I'll go and cancel my account because this is ridiculous seeing kids with no respect for one another.


Are you jealous or do you have a terrible double standard? We're still waiting.

Because, saying Emerson was NOT the best player in his class is disrespecting him? Did I ever mention the fact that he sucked or he's a bad player? No. Get your facts straight. There is no double standard here, I did not disrespect Emerson in any way. I'm simply saying he wasn't the best player in his class. Get it through your head, Saints lover.
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fatheads



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:06 pm

As soon as you leave this thread/site, Saints Hater.

edit:as you promised you would a year ago.
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CStone



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:09 pm

fatheads wrote:
CStone wrote:
"if you have money you can do whatever you want."

"Don't reply saying the best teams should be in the tourney cause that excuse is over done."

I think you're so delusional you've answered your own question and don't even know it. You clearly aren't accepting any other answers.

Money over everything.

Welcome to the real world. Oh right, don't you still drive your mom's car?

haha no unlike you i own my own truck and condo but nice try.
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fatheads



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:09 pm

I never said "disrespect," I said discredit, big difference.
It is now clear you were trying to do the latter all along.
Neither did I say Emerson was the best player in his class.

YOU implied he was no good cause ALL HE DID was hit a game winner (in a championship game), and plays 3 minutes in NCAA Div 1.

Let me remind you, you have never set foot on NCAA Div 1.

Edit: In case he recants
TextBook wrote:

Because, saying Emerson was NOT the best player in his class is disrespecting him? Did I ever mention the fact that he sucked or he's a bad player? No. Get your facts straight. There is no double standard here, I did not disrespect Emerson in any way. I'm simply saying he wasn't the best player in his class. Get it through your head, Saints lover.


Last edited by fatheads on Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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asiseeit



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PostSubject: vc vs saints   Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:10 pm

I think, that we can all agree that public schools can not compete against the private schools. That is why there are rules governing this issue. If, it becomes a free for all, every year in the provincials it would be Vc vs Saints, and maybe a dark horse like Kelowna trying to throw a wrench in their tea party.

The system works, let it be.
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mikeyb



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PostSubject: Re: VC vs Saints   Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:19 pm

asiseeit wrote:
I think, that we can all agree that public schools can not compete against the private schools. That is why there are rules governing this issue. If, it becomes a free for all, every year in the provincials it would be Vc vs Saints, and maybe a dark horse like Kelowna trying to throw a wrench in their tea party.

The system works, let it be.

Now this has to be the most arrogant comment in this forums history.
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