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 Jr Boys' Rankings 2011-2012

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JrCoachS



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PostSubject: Re: Jr Boys' Rankings 2011-2012   Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:51 am

Didn't Mouat just beat South last week too?
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mikeyb



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PostSubject: Re: Jr Boys' Rankings 2011-2012   Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:27 am

Didn't Fox just beat Walnut Grove ??
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fundamentals



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PostSubject: Latest jr boys' rankings   Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:43 am

Happy New Year everyone. At the end of the day, the junior boys' rankings must be a crapshoot to do. Who is and isn't reporting scores? What is the criteria for the ranking? Do the rankings fairly or unfairly capture when teams played one another? In reality, who knows.

The bigger concern should be the "wild card" berth for the provincials. I believe this is used for the Grade 8 Provincial Invitational and I believe Rob Slavik uses it for the 9 Provincials. How is the wild card determined? Best won/loss record? Strength of schedule?

Sounds a lot like american college football and trying to come up with a number 1 ranking without a playoff system. At the end of the day, rankings mean very little except to increase the interest in the game (which is a good thing). Conference playoffs are where the rubber hits the road. You only have to look to Fleetwood at the senior level and see how the 1-32 Fraser Valley seeds get thrown for a loop when conference winners sometimes rank higher than some coaches feel they should (when you bring in strength of schedule).

It's great to see more blogging about the junior side of bball.
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karnsharda12



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PostSubject: Re: Jr Boys' Rankings 2011-2012   Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:19 am

Mark- You cannot just base one win as making you the number one seed you must look at overall strength of schedule and must also take into account that these are kids a team like VC who has a tough schedule must go out an play a game every other night no discredit to claremont they are a great team also take into account the VC squad was missing 4 players due to injury major blow to their squad. The way the rankings are based as if teams matched up head to head at a neutral site and played a best of 3 series who would come out on top. For example Saints should technically be dropped much lower due to their lack of games but based on the way they are done Saints would win most series based on overall talent an teams strength. As fundamentals has pointed out it becomes difficult when teams do not report their scores to me or coach mer (ie.Saints) if all teams sent out their scores as directed it would be much easier to do so.

Mouat has had some good games as of late but have also suffered some losses this year and walnut grove has been playing with some injuries even their best player varun kumar has been playing hurt over the last two weeks

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Mark Scott



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PostSubject: Re: Jr Boys' Rankings 2011-2012   Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:15 pm

karnsharda12 wrote:
Mark- You cannot just base one win as making you the number one seed you must look at overall strength of schedule and must also take into account that these are kids a team like VC who has a tough schedule must go out an play a game every other night no discredit to claremont they are a great team also take into account the VC squad was missing 4 players due to injury major blow to their squad. The way the rankings are based as if teams matched up head to head at a neutral site and played a best of 3 series who would come out on top. For example Saints should technically be dropped much lower due to their lack of games but based on the way they are done Saints would win most series based on overall talent an teams strength. As fundamentals has pointed out it becomes difficult when teams do not report their scores to me or coach mer (ie.Saints) if all teams sent out their scores as directed it would be much easier to do so.

Mouat has had some good games as of late but have also suffered some losses this year and walnut grove has been playing with some injuries even their best player varun kumar has been playing hurt over the last two weeks


I know you cannot base the rankings on one win, which is why I asked the question. But it does seem odd to me that if the #4 team beats the #1 team then number 4 should move up and number one down (this is not a knock against VC which is an excellent and well-coached team). Teams are not going to play a three game series in a neutral site, so you have to use what you have got. Injuries to key starters are an issue.

I share your view about Saints schedule and wonder why their results are not shared. If teams do not share their results then you should drop them in the rankings - ie you do not have information to assess their ranking. In the end it is all just interesting to see which teams are doing well. It seems to be a good discussion here on the Jr site.
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JrCoachS



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PostSubject: Re: Jr Boys' Rankings 2011-2012   Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:12 am

The Jr Emerald this weekend will help clear up some of the questions I'm sure. 7 of the 8 teams are in the Top 15.
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M-5



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PostSubject: Re: Jr Boys' Rankings 2011-2012   Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:02 am

IMO the best team out there is St. George's. Too bad they haven't played anyone significant enough to prove it! In response to what Karn said, usually when a top team loses, injuries or not, they move down in the rankings. The team that won typically moves up. Watch the senior rankings - they are wildly variable from one edition to the next, just as are the NCAA rankings.
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PostSubject: Re: Jr Boys' Rankings 2011-2012   Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:03 pm

Senior rankings are different where top teams play each other often so it is easy rank and adjust as they win or lose. It is not the case with juniors. Only few teams play strong schedule and some teams do not even play any top ten until late into the season. They want to be ranked based on their paper strength. So channel your focus to influence your school to play good teams rather than demanding adjustments in the ranking. Secondly, although senior rankings go up and down, do you think the players are paying serious attention to them? Have you seen anyone murmur over their placing? Nah and even junior players don’t care about it.
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M-5



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PostSubject: Re: Jr Boys' Rankings 2011-2012   Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:28 pm

I believe this is the way the grade 9 boys provincials are ranked.

Head to head results > results against common opponents > tournament standings

Priority after tournament standings would be based on the ranker's interpretation of the teams I would guess.....
And players (and some coaches) certainly do look at and care about the rankings.
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JrCoachS



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PostSubject: Re: Jr Boys' Rankings 2011-2012   Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:38 pm

Rankings are fun to debate but in the end the only rankings that matter are where you placed at Provincials.
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bulldog10



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PostSubject: Speaking of grade 9 provincial, can anyone confirm that the Gr.9 Provincials are being hosted by Kits. If that is correct then to have both the Gr.9 & Gr.10(@ Van College) provincials in Van. would be interesting.   Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:12 pm

M-5 wrote:
I believe this is the way the grade 9 boys provincials are ranked.

Head to head results > results against common opponents > tournament standings

Priority after tournament standings would be based on the ranker's interpretation of the teams I would guess.....
And players (and some coaches) certainly do look at and care about the rankings.
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FVBasketballFan



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PostSubject: Jr. Rankings   Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:52 pm

I also know that VC defeated Burnaby South before Christmas, so I'm sure that factored into the rankings.

Someone mentioned it earlier, but the fact that several of the top 15 are playing in the VC tourney this weekend - should bring a lot more clarity to the rankings; should be some great basketball!
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CourtSwag



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PostSubject: Re: Jr Boys' Rankings 2011-2012   Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:44 am

M-5 wrote:
IMO the best team out there is St. George's. Too bad they haven't played anyone significant enough to prove it! In response to what Karn said, usually when a top team loses, injuries or not, they move down in the rankings. The team that won typically moves up. Watch the senior rankings - they are wildly variable from one edition to the next, just as are the NCAA rankings.

Saints are playing kits this thursday. So lets see if your theory is right
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Sportvictoria



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PostSubject: How rankings should be done   Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:20 am

Rankings are one thing - and one thing only - "What have you done for me lately"

Rankings are supposed to reflect who the best is right now - not weeks ago and not weeks from now.

If you start doing it any other way you end up with bias controlling the decisions and that's the wrong way to go.

Just my thoughts.

Lyle - Sportvictoria
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karnsharda12



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PostSubject: Jr Boys' Rankings 2011-2012   Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:36 pm

Poll #3

1) VC

2) Claremont

3) St. Georges

4) Kits

5) Gleneagle

6) McNeil

7) Burnaby South

Cool WJ Mouat

9) Elphinstone

10) Valleyview

11) Terry Fox

12) Walnut Grove

13) Sardis

14) Panorama Ridge

15) Pitt Meadows


Last edited by karnsharda12 on Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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JrCoachS



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PostSubject: Re: Jr Boys' Rankings 2011-2012   Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:43 pm

:flower: :flower: :flower: :flower:


Last edited by JrCoachS on Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sportvictoria



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PostSubject: Rankings   Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:01 pm

All the season's JR (as well as A, AA & AAA) rankings can all be viewed at
www.sportvictoria.com
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karnsharda12



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PostSubject: Re: Jr Boys' Rankings 2011-2012   Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:07 pm

sorry my mistake its been edited was looking at the results and mixed that up there these are finalized Poll 3 rankings
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mikeyb



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PostSubject: Re: Jr Boys' Rankings 2011-2012   Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:23 pm

Just saying.... Gleneagle beat Kits this past weekend.... Just saying..
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PostSubject: Re: Jr Boys' Rankings 2011-2012   Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:28 pm

My take:

1) VC

2) Claremont

3) St. Georges

4) Gleneagle

5) Kits

6) Burnaby South

7) Elphinstone

8 ) Terry Fox

9) Walnut Grove

10 WJ Mouat

11 Panorama Ridge

12) Sardis

13) Pitt Meadows

14) SMUS

15) Fleetwood
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JrCoachS



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PostSubject: Re: Jr Boys' Rankings 2011-2012   Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:47 pm

Looks like those 8 teams from the Valley will have quite the dogfight for the 3 Provincial berths... Lucky that Claremont and SMUS won't have to sweat out their spots since they get 3 too.
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Walnutfan



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PostSubject: Re: Jr Boys' Rankings 2011-2012   Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:54 pm

JrCoachS wrote:
Looks like those 8 teams from the Valley will have quite the dogfight for the 3 Provincial berths... Lucky that Claremont and SMUS won't have to sweat out their spots since they get 3 too.

I would rather say Gleneagle and fox is a lock for 2 spots and the remaining one spot is up for grabs for the other 6 teams. Do not underestimate Tweed also.
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fundamentals



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PostSubject: Rankings, rankings, and more rankings   Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:08 am

What about Delview? they beat Fleetwood earlier in the season. As for gleneagle, I believe they also beat Kits at the Charles Best tournament earlier in the year. As I wrote in my subject line: rankings, rankings, rankings who knows.

As for walnutfan's point about locks out of the valley...yikes, not sure if anyone's a lock, especially at the jr level. 32 teams make it into the regionals and anything can happen. Upsets, upsets, upsets.

As for the 3 berths for the FV, representation by population would suggest the valley should have 4 and the island 3. last year the island gets 3 plus a host. Yikes. I don't want to get into a long drawn out debate here (at the sr. level the island has been shafted the last few years due to the quality of teams that don't make the provincials), but the bigger your geographical region, the more berths a region should get.

I would prefer to see a wild card scenario where a back door game is played to gain that berth, rather than a committee or something decide based on a flawed system of strength of schedule, etc.

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Islandview2



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PostSubject: Re: Jr Boys' Rankings 2011-2012   Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:05 am

JrCoachS wrote:
Looks like those 8 teams from the Valley will have quite the dogfight for the 3 Provincial berths... Lucky that Claremont and SMUS won't have to sweat out their spots since they get 3 too.

Can't speak for the Valley but there are other solid junior teams on the Island, too -- Oak Bay, Lambrick Park and Wellington, to name a few. Getting off the Island won't be easy, either.
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PostSubject: Re: Jr Boys' Rankings 2011-2012   Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:46 am

fundamentals - Delview beating Fleetwood wouldn't get them ranked since Fleetwood has never been ranked. But it was surprising that Fleetwood didn't crack the top 15 because they did beat Elphinstone and Mouat earlier this month.
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PostSubject: Re: Jr Boys' Rankings 2011-2012   Today at 6:13 pm

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Jr Boys' Rankings 2011-2012
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