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 LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action

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Sportvictoria



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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:52 pm

Pooch wrote:
I am no lawyer, but I doubt that any group needs to fear legal action if their own actions are just and fair.
The LM zone always claims that their decisions are taken democratically and that somehow makes anything they do fair.
Just having more hands go up in favour of a decision does not always mean it is fair when the decision involves singling out a minority group for some sort of discrimination or unjust treatment. The courts exist to ensure fairness. They only intimidate those who feel their decisions reflect something else. A minority like the Independents, when faced with hostility of the public schools can hardly be expected to take these "democratic" but unfair decisions without at some point demanding fairness.
I think communication is the answer as recommended by others here as well. Not the kind of confrontational communication that can take place at a meeting of all the coaches where the minds are made up in advance and a vote takes place that day.
How about if Ebe and a few others actually just met with the private school people on their own. Be true leaders. Challenge the Independents to live by the same rules as everyone else if you think they are skirting the rules and charge them if they are not. Fairness again. If they are going after kids to attend and play at their schools, then that is not fair. Someone take the lead and do it with a positive mindset.
Certainly it cannot be about transfers, as all the public schools also have transfers. If it is about recruiting, then get after them or any public school that does the same, but don't just listen to the eternal rumour mill.
I watched the LM tournament and one thing I noted was how well all the kids from the different schools know each other now. Probably the result of all the clubs, provincial teams, etc. I saw many of the starters from VC, Tupper and South sitting together to watch the final game...and they are obviously friends.
The kids were laughing with each other and supporting each other to an extent I have never seen. Let's see if all the good people who are coaching can get together in the interests of the kids and the game we all love.


Pooch - you're a 'true believer'.
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Mark Scott



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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:19 pm

Sportvictoria wrote:
Pooch wrote:
I am no lawyer, but I doubt that any group needs to fear legal action if their own actions are just and fair.
The LM zone always claims that their decisions are taken democratically and that somehow makes anything they do fair.
Just having more hands go up in favour of a decision does not always mean it is fair when the decision involves singling out a minority group for some sort of discrimination or unjust treatment. The courts exist to ensure fairness. They only intimidate those who feel their decisions reflect something else. A minority like the Independents, when faced with hostility of the public schools can hardly be expected to take these "democratic" but unfair decisions without at some point demanding fairness.
I think communication is the answer as recommended by others here as well. Not the kind of confrontational communication that can take place at a meeting of all the coaches where the minds are made up in advance and a vote takes place that day.
How about if Ebe and a few others actually just met with the private school people on their own. Be true leaders. Challenge the Independents to live by the same rules as everyone else if you think they are skirting the rules and charge them if they are not. Fairness again. If they are going after kids to attend and play at their schools, then that is not fair. Someone take the lead and do it with a positive mindset.
Certainly it cannot be about transfers, as all the public schools also have transfers. If it is about recruiting, then get after them or any public school that does the same, but don't just listen to the eternal rumour mill.
I watched the LM tournament and one thing I noted was how well all the kids from the different schools know each other now. Probably the result of all the clubs, provincial teams, etc. I saw many of the starters from VC, Tupper and South sitting together to watch the final game...and they are obviously friends.
The kids were laughing with each other and supporting each other to an extent I have never seen. Let's see if all the good people who are coaching can get together in the interests of the kids and the game we all love.


Pooch - you're a 'true believer'.

Argumentum ad hominem is the logical fallacy of attempting to undermine a speaker's argument by attacking the speaker instead of addressing the argument. There seem to be a lot of personal attacks on this site when the logical arguments break down.



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PostSubject: Simple Question   Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:30 pm


Why can't VC and Saints play in the Vancouver league? I have never heard the reasons for excluding those two teams and requiring them to play in their own two-team league. Can someone who knows the answer please reply?
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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:59 pm

Mark Scott wrote:

Why can't VC and Saints play in the Vancouver league? I have never heard the reasons for excluding those two teams and requiring them to play in their own two-team league. Can someone who knows the answer please reply?

This is what I'm wondering. I can understand because they are in their own league only getting the one berth between the two schools to LM's; however, I don't get why they don't join the Vancouver league prior to the season starting. This would make much more sense instead of lodging complaints at the end of the season, when teams who don't make it out of their own leagues don't have any right to.

WRCA is in the Fraser Valley league, right?
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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:11 pm

okanaganbball wrote:
Mark Scott wrote:

Why can't VC and Saints play in the Vancouver league? I have never heard the reasons for excluding those two teams and requiring them to play in their own two-team league. Can someone who knows the answer please reply?

This is what I'm wondering. I can understand because they are in their own league only getting the one berth between the two schools to LM's; however, I don't get why they don't join the Vancouver league prior to the season starting. This would make much more sense instead of lodging complaints at the end of the season, when teams who don't make it out of their own leagues don't have any right to.

WRCA is in the Fraser Valley league, right?

I have been told, but I am not certain, that VC and Saints have asked many times to play in the Vancouver league. I cannot imagine it is their choice to play in a two-team league when there is no geographic reason for doing so. It would seem to be a simple solution to let them play in the league and earn the right to a berth like every other team in the area.

Again, can someone explain why VC and Saints cannot play in the Vancouver league?
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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:18 pm

Mark Scott wrote:
okanaganbball wrote:
Mark Scott wrote:

Why can't VC and Saints play in the Vancouver league? I have never heard the reasons for excluding those two teams and requiring them to play in their own two-team league. Can someone who knows the answer please reply?

This is what I'm wondering. I can understand because they are in their own league only getting the one berth between the two schools to LM's; however, I don't get why they don't join the Vancouver league prior to the season starting. This would make much more sense instead of lodging complaints at the end of the season, when teams who don't make it out of their own leagues don't have any right to.

WRCA is in the Fraser Valley league, right?

I have been told, but I am not certain, that VC and Saints have asked many times to play in the Vancouver league. I cannot imagine it is their choice to play in a two-team league when there is no geographic reason for doing so. It would seem to be a simple solution to let them play in the league and earn the right to a berth like every other team in the area.

Again, can someone explain why VC and Saints cannot play in the Vancouver league?

Would love to hear some feedback as well. Maybe we can hear from some of the Van. school or LM schools Athletic Directors (AD) and coaches.
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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:31 pm

okanaganbball wrote:
Mark Scott wrote:

Why can't VC and Saints play in the Vancouver league? I have never heard the reasons for excluding those two teams and requiring them to play in their own two-team league. Can someone who knows the answer please reply?

This is what I'm wondering. I can understand because they are in their own league only getting the one berth between the two schools to LM's; however, I don't get why they don't join the Vancouver league prior to the season starting. This would make much more sense instead of lodging complaints at the end of the season, when teams who don't make it out of their own leagues don't have any right to.

WRCA is in the Fraser Valley league, right?



VC has been at odds with the public schools all the way back to the 50's as far as I know. St. George's is relatively new on the scene but has come out hard.

WRCA and MEI don't tend to go after 10, 11 & 12's as they prefer to have kids younger and build them as they see fit. Just look at the history and you will not see a lot of developed players transferring into those two schools. Yes there are some, but not a lot. But there still is a far amount of resentment in the Valley. Time will tell.

VC and St. George's have shall we say, taken a different path.

VC, in the past, has run full-page colour ads in the Province pushing the school and their athletics, with no penalty from BC School Sports. When Mount Douglas ran a small ad about their football program, even though at the time NO OTHER SCHOOL offered football south of Nanaimo (100 k away), they were spanked pretty hard for it by BC School Sports.

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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:46 pm

bulldog10 wrote:
Mark Scott wrote:
okanaganbball wrote:
Mark Scott wrote:

Why can't VC and Saints play in the Vancouver league? I have never heard the reasons for excluding those two teams and requiring them to play in their own two-team league. Can someone who knows the answer please reply?

This is what I'm wondering. I can understand because they are in their own league only getting the one berth between the two schools to LM's; however, I don't get why they don't join the Vancouver league prior to the season starting. This would make much more sense instead of lodging complaints at the end of the season, when teams who don't make it out of their own leagues don't have any right to.

WRCA is in the Fraser Valley league, right?

I have been told, but I am not certain, that VC and Saints have asked many times to play in the Vancouver league. I cannot imagine it is their choice to play in a two-team league when there is no geographic reason for doing so. It would seem to be a simple solution to let them play in the league and earn the right to a berth like every other team in the area.

Again, can someone explain why VC and Saints cannot play in the Vancouver league?

Would love to hear some feedback as well. Maybe we can hear from some of the Van. school or LM schools Athletic Directors (AD) and coaches.


I thought I recalled that Ebe had partially answered this question in a post last year. Here is his response: "As far as letting the independent's in to the Vancouver league this has nothing to do with basketball but it is an issue for all of the sports leagues in the LM. The independents have their own LM league and the Vancouver association does not allow them to compete, this has nothing to do with basketball but it is across all leagues."

I wonder if anyone in the LM association or the Vancouver league can shed some light on the roots of why "the Vancouver association does not allow them to compete"? It seems that this is at the root of the problem. Given that there are only 2 AAA independent basketball teams in the lower mainland, doesn't it make more sense to permit them to compete than isolate them in a two-team league?




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Woodenpaidhisplayers2



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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:32 pm

Mark Scott wrote:
bulldog10 wrote:
Mark Scott wrote:
okanaganbball wrote:
Mark Scott wrote:

Why can't VC and Saints play in the Vancouver league? I have never heard the reasons for excluding those two teams and requiring them to play in their own two-team league. Can someone who knows the answer please reply?

This is what I'm wondering. I can understand because they are in their own league only getting the one berth between the two schools to LM's; however, I don't get why they don't join the Vancouver league prior to the season starting. This would make much more sense instead of lodging complaints at the end of the season, when teams who don't make it out of their own leagues don't have any right to.

WRCA is in the Fraser Valley league, right?

I have been told, but I am not certain, that VC and Saints have asked many times to play in the Vancouver league. I cannot imagine it is their choice to play in a two-team league when there is no geographic reason for doing so. It would seem to be a simple solution to let them play in the league and earn the right to a berth like every other team in the area.

Again, can someone explain why VC and Saints cannot play in the Vancouver league?

Would love to hear some feedback as well. Maybe we can hear from some of the Van. school or LM schools Athletic Directors (AD) and coaches.


I thought I recalled that Ebe had partially answered this question in a post last year. Here is his response: "As far as letting the independent's in to the Vancouver league this has nothing to do with basketball but it is an issue for all of the sports leagues in the LM. The independents have their own LM league and the Vancouver association does not allow them to compete, this has nothing to do with basketball but it is across all leagues."

I wonder if anyone in the LM association or the Vancouver league can shed some light on the roots of why "the Vancouver association does not allow them to compete"? It seems that this is at the root of the problem. Given that there are only 2 AAA independent basketball teams in the lower mainland, doesn't it make more sense to permit them to compete than isolate them in a two-team league?





the reason why Independants are not in the Vancouver League is because:
1) they have no catchment restrictions,
2)they allow rogue parents and associates to entice and recruit players when they need a positional player because they can't or won't reprimand them.
3) Many Independants pay their coaches in kind (prep blocks) or give athletic departments carte blanche with no fundraising whatsoever.
4) All public schools have girls teams (twice the amount of practise demand and gym limitations) and they do not have the same facilities to be in the same league with the boys schools.

THUS; CHANGE IS NEEDED! PROGRESS WILL HAPPEN.

An independant league and provincial championship for basketball is inevitable; call it the TELUS CUP;

Question might be: would anyone like to be in the league with Saint George's??
-- Saint Thomas Moore is an example of an Independant school that refuses to put up with Saints selfish interests. Hey-- aren't they the real reason why Saints had to hire lawyers to get themselves in the LM tournament? When they went double A that meant that VC/Saint's got only one berth to the LM's...Still scratching my head over how Saint's got to be LM Champions!
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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:48 pm

Woodenpaidhisplayers2 wrote:
Mark Scott wrote:
bulldog10 wrote:
Mark Scott wrote:
okanaganbball wrote:
Mark Scott wrote:

Why can't VC and Saints play in the Vancouver league? I have never heard the reasons for excluding those two teams and requiring them to play in their own two-team league. Can someone who knows the answer please reply?

This is what I'm wondering. I can understand because they are in their own league only getting the one berth between the two schools to LM's; however, I don't get why they don't join the Vancouver league prior to the season starting. This would make much more sense instead of lodging complaints at the end of the season, when teams who don't make it out of their own leagues don't have any right to.

WRCA is in the Fraser Valley league, right?

I have been told, but I am not certain, that VC and Saints have asked many times to play in the Vancouver league. I cannot imagine it is their choice to play in a two-team league when there is no geographic reason for doing so. It would seem to be a simple solution to let them play in the league and earn the right to a berth like every other team in the area.

Again, can someone explain why VC and Saints cannot play in the Vancouver league?

Would love to hear some feedback as well. Maybe we can hear from some of the Van. school or LM schools Athletic Directors (AD) and coaches.


I thought I recalled that Ebe had partially answered this question in a post last year. Here is his response: "As far as letting the independent's in to the Vancouver league this has nothing to do with basketball but it is an issue for all of the sports leagues in the LM. The independents have their own LM league and the Vancouver association does not allow them to compete, this has nothing to do with basketball but it is across all leagues."

I wonder if anyone in the LM association or the Vancouver league can shed some light on the roots of why "the Vancouver association does not allow them to compete"? It seems that this is at the root of the problem. Given that there are only 2 AAA independent basketball teams in the lower mainland, doesn't it make more sense to permit them to compete than isolate them in a two-team league?





the reason why Independants are not in the Vancouver League is because:
1) they have no catchment restrictions,
2)they allow rogue parents and associates to entice and recruit players when they need a positional player because they can't or won't reprimand them.
3) Many Independants pay their coaches in kind (prep blocks) or give athletic departments carte blanche with no fundraising whatsoever.
4) All public schools have girls teams (twice the amount of practise demand and gym limitations) and they do not have the same facilities to be in the same league with the boys schools.

THUS; CHANGE IS NEEDED! PROGRESS WILL HAPPEN.

An independant league and provincial championship for basketball is inevitable; call it the TELUS CUP;

Question might be: would anyone like to be in the league with Saint George's??
-- Saint Thomas Moore is an example of an Independant school that refuses to put up with Saints selfish interests. Hey-- aren't they the real reason why Saints had to hire lawyers to get themselves in the LM tournament? When they went double A that meant that VC/Saint's got only one berth to the LM's...Still scratching my head over how Saint's got to be LM Champions!


Is that the official position of the LM association and Vancouver league? If not, can someone with facts please respond.


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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:05 pm

[/quote]
Still scratching my head over how Saint's got to be LM Champions!
[/quote]

Better question to ask is how did Guy Da Silva get voted as the Coach of the Year by the LM Coaches? That was a shocker!
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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:29 pm

Seems to me WRCA was the school found guilty of recruiting just a few years back.
I have no idea about the 1950's and have never seen the full page ads put out by VC, so no comment on those.
Seems ridiculous to me that Mount Doug would have been sanctioned...I guess it's better that kids and parents make decisions without all the information. Did they claim their football program was the greatest somehow? If they just said they had one when no one else did, that seems like pretty good information for the public to have. But then I believe in the right to choose as long as you are not recruited.
I do know there is a lot of talk out there about some of the Saints players over the past few years and how they got to that school or how they pay their tuition. If something is going on against the rules, stop talking and do something about it. If they are doing that, force change or kick them out.
I also know that a year ago the fact-finding group from the BCHSBBA tasked with trying to come up with a solution to all this mess interviewed the boys who had transferred to VC at the end of their Grade 9 year who are now in Grade 12. They also interviewed the parents. I don't think any other school offered to give them access to their kids. The commission or whatever they were found nothing beyond the kids and parents making a choice...no influence, nothing to complain about whatsoever.
It is too bad the current VC program gets tarred with a brush perhaps meant for others. And please do not come back with rumours. Kids do make choices. Ask Kits. Ask Palmer. Ask Terry Fox, and probably every team in the BC's.
And yes, I am a VC fan...I love the way they play and I have gotten to know people within the program.
I am also a Saints fan, a Churchill, Tupper and Point Grey fan, a Pitt and Fox fan, a Kelowna fan, etc., but if anyone is cheating let's nail them. If kids are just choosing to go to those schools, then let's get back to playing.

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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:55 pm

Just one correction in the comments regarding no "issues" between the private and public schools that compete in the Fraser Valley. There was a vote taken a number of years back that would have seen the private schools form thier own league. The motion was passed when voted on by coaches however it was later over turned by the executive due to some constitutional or legal concerns (not sure of the details specifically perhaps a FV coach could provide the specifics?).
This is just to say that other regions that do have the privates and public schools competing in the same league do have tensions that exist.
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PostSubject: Good article in today's courier   Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:03 pm

http://www.vancourier.com/sports/Buzzer+beater+brouhaha+mars+high+school+basketball+thriller+between/6253872/story.html
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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:26 pm

asiseeit wrote:
http://www.vancourier.com/sports/Buzzer+beater+brouhaha+mars+high+school+basketball+thriller+between/6253872/story.html

Great article... one question:

Where do saints get the female fans from Smile
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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:27 pm

Politics aside....the Kits fan "please don't sue us" chant was very funny
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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:29 pm

stocktonsshorts wrote:
asiseeit wrote:
http://www.vancourier.com/sports/Buzzer+beater+brouhaha+mars+high+school+basketball+thriller+between/6253872/story.html

Great article... one question:

Where do saints get the female fans from Smile


Kits is alleging that they were recruited through the German Cooking Program.
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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:36 pm

Sim wrote:
Politics aside....the Kits fan "please don't sue us" chant was very funny

Speaking of funny chants and definitely going off topic, at the WRCA/Tammy game in the FV playoffs the Tammy fans could be heard chanting "We want Dyk-stra!" And even funnier was the chant when the WRCA coaches/parents called a timeout after Tammy went on a run: "What would John do!" Gotta love the fans!!!
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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:03 am

Mark Scott wrote:
Again, can someone explain why VC and Saints cannot play in the Vancouver league?

Mark this is a pretty simple straight forward question and I wish I could provide you with a simple answer but I am not sure if I can, however I will try.
The Lower Mainland Independent schools have their own league for all sports, it is called the Lower Mainland Independent Secondary Schools Athletic Association. Member schools of this Association are: Notre Dame, WPGA, St Patricks, St Georges, STM, LFA, Crofton House, VC, & York House: www.lmissaa.com
The Vancouver Secondary Schools Athletic Association has never allowed these independent schools in to any of their leagues as full members at any time. They have allowed these schools to pay a fee to compete in their leagues on an exhibition basis. For example in senior boys soccer both Saints and VC used to be scheduled so that they would play each Vancouver team in an exhibition game but these games would not count in the standings and when it came time for qualifications for BC playoffs the independents would go on their own. Two years ago Vancouver made the decision to not allow independent schools in to their leagues for exhibition games anymore. Many of these schools in various sports have sinced tried to get in to other Lower Mainland leagues but none of these leagues have accepted them. For example Saints applied to get in to the junior levels of Rugby with the North Shore League but were turned down. As I said before this is not a basketball issue it is across all sports and it has always been this way. When I first started many many years ago in the late 80's the Independent Sr Boys BB league had as many as 4 schools in it (ND, STM, VC, St Pats) but STM, ST Pat's, & ND decided for their own reasons that they wanted to compete at the AA or A level and in the early 2000's the AAA Sr Boys Ind league was down to two teams (VC & Saints). STM came back to the AAA Ind league for a few years (2005 to 2009 I think) but has once again decided to go back to AA.
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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:30 am

stocktonsshorts wrote:
asiseeit wrote:
http://www.vancourier.com/sports/Buzzer+beater+brouhaha+mars+high+school+basketball+thriller+between/6253872/story.html

Great article... one question:

Where do saints get the female fans from Smile

Crofton house
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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:18 am

ebe wrote:
Mark Scott wrote:
Again, can someone explain why VC and Saints cannot play in the Vancouver league?

Mark this is a pretty simple straight forward question and I wish I could provide you with a simple answer but I am not sure if I can, however I will try.

The Lower Mainland Independent schools have their own league for all sports, it is called the Lower Mainland Independent Secondary Schools Athletic Association. Member schools of this Association are: Notre Dame, WPGA, St Patricks, St Georges, STM, LFA, Crofton House, VC, & York House: www.lmissaa.com

The Vancouver Secondary Schools Athletic Association has never allowed these independent schools in to any of their leagues as full members at any time. They have allowed these schools to pay a fee to compete in their leagues on an exhibition basis. For example in senior boys soccer both Saints and VC used to be scheduled so that they would play each Vancouver team in an exhibition game but these games would not count in the standings and when it came time for qualifications for BC playoffs the independents would go on their own.
Two years ago Vancouver made the decision to not allow independent schools in to their leagues for exhibition games anymore. Many of these schools in various sports have sinced tried to get in to other Lower Mainland leagues but none of these leagues have accepted them. For example Saints applied to get in to the junior levels of Rugby with the North Shore League but were turned down. As I said before this is not a basketball issue it is across all sports and it has always been this way.

When I first started many many years ago in the late 80's the Independent Sr Boys BB league had as many as 4 schools in it (ND, STM, VC, St Pats) but STM, ST Pat's, & ND decided for their own reasons that they wanted to compete at the AA or A level and in the early 2000's the AAA Sr Boys Ind league was down to two teams (VC & Saints). STM came back to the AAA Ind league for a few years (2005 to 2009 I think) but has once again decided to go back to AA.

Thanks for your answer Ebe. Though it still not clear why the Vancouver Secondary Schools Athletic Association does not allow the Independents to play it really does paint a bigger picture as to where the problems are and as much as we want to bitch about it being a local squabble involving a hnadful of basketball schools, the answers and solutions are likely to be found at a provincial level.

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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:17 pm

ronh_pm wrote:
ebe wrote:
Mark Scott wrote:
Again, can someone explain why VC and Saints cannot play in the Vancouver league?

Mark this is a pretty simple straight forward question and I wish I could provide you with a simple answer but I am not sure if I can, however I will try.

The Lower Mainland Independent schools have their own league for all sports, it is called the Lower Mainland Independent Secondary Schools Athletic Association. Member schools of this Association are: Notre Dame, WPGA, St Patricks, St Georges, STM, LFA, Crofton House, VC, & York House: www.lmissaa.com

The Vancouver Secondary Schools Athletic Association has never allowed these independent schools in to any of their leagues as full members at any time. They have allowed these schools to pay a fee to compete in their leagues on an exhibition basis. For example in senior boys soccer both Saints and VC used to be scheduled so that they would play each Vancouver team in an exhibition game but these games would not count in the standings and when it came time for qualifications for BC playoffs the independents would go on their own.
Two years ago Vancouver made the decision to not allow independent schools in to their leagues for exhibition games anymore. Many of these schools in various sports have sinced tried to get in to other Lower Mainland leagues but none of these leagues have accepted them. For example Saints applied to get in to the junior levels of Rugby with the North Shore League but were turned down. As I said before this is not a basketball issue it is across all sports and it has always been this way.

When I first started many many years ago in the late 80's the Independent Sr Boys BB league had as many as 4 schools in it (ND, STM, VC, St Pats) but STM, ST Pat's, & ND decided for their own reasons that they wanted to compete at the AA or A level and in the early 2000's the AAA Sr Boys Ind league was down to two teams (VC & Saints). STM came back to the AAA Ind league for a few years (2005 to 2009 I think) but has once again decided to go back to AA.

Thanks for your answer Ebe. Though it still not clear why the Vancouver Secondary Schools Athletic Association does not allow the Independents to play it really does paint a bigger picture as to where the problems are and as much as we want to bitch about it being a local squabble involving a hnadful of basketball schools, the answers and solutions are likely to be found at a provincial level.


Thanks for this background Ebe, I appreciate that you are helping fill in the blanks, especially for those who did not grow up here. What you describe sounds similar to the CISAA in the Toronto area where there is an independent league for sports. As is the case here, they do eventually play for the provincial championship against public schools. In their basketball league there are 8 AAA equivalent teams such as Upper Canada College, Ridley and St. Michael's. Some schools take the sport more seriously than others and St. Michael's, which is similar to VC, usually fields a very strong team. The other independents are usually fodder for the better public schools. With eight teams it is a viable league.

The problem for the AAA independent teams in Vancouver is that there are only two schools. I understand why the leagues are separated, and when there are sufficient number of teams, it does make sense to play among themselves. However, when there are not enough teams in an area, it would seem to be in the interests of all to permit independent schools to play with others. VC's football program is a good example of an independent school playing against public schools when a one-team league would not be viable.

It is clear that there is animosity dating back a long time - likely for good reason on both sides. As a newcomer, the old bitterness is lost on me. It would seem to me that there is a simple solution within reach and that is to invite the two independents to play in the Vancouver league. It would require some grace and a show of contrition from both sides, but it seems to be a fair-minded solution, and one preferable to taking extraordinary efforts and motions and legal proceedings (by both sides) to ostracize two schools in an unworkable two-team league.

While I do appreciate the history of never having allowed independent school to play as full members, I do not see any current barrier to extending an offer to play. Is there some reason why the Lower Mainland leagues could not extend that offer?





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Geddy



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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:44 pm

[quote="Mark Scott"]
ronh_pm wrote:
ebe wrote:
Mark Scott wrote:
Again, can someone explain why VC and Saints cannot play in the Vancouver league?

Mark this is a pretty simple straight forward question and I wish I could provide you with a simple answer but I am not sure if I can, however I will try.

The Lower Mainland Independent schools have their own league for all sports, it is called the Lower Mainland Independent Secondary Schools Athletic Association. Member schools of this Association are: Notre Dame, WPGA, St Patricks, St Georges, STM, LFA, Crofton House, VC, & York House: www.lmissaa.com

The Vancouver Secondary Schools Athletic Association has never allowed these independent schools in to any of their leagues as full members at any time. They have allowed these schools to pay a fee to compete in their leagues on an exhibition basis. For example in senior boys soccer both Saints and VC used to be scheduled so that they would play each Vancouver team in an exhibition game but these games would not count in the standings and when it came time for qualifications for BC playoffs the independents would go on their own.
Two years ago Vancouver made the decision to not allow independent schools in to their leagues for exhibition games anymore. Many of these schools in various sports have sinced tried to get in to other Lower Mainland leagues but none of these leagues have accepted them. For example Saints applied to get in to the junior levels of Rugby with the North Shore League but were turned down. As I said before this is not a basketball issue it is across all sports and it has always been this way.

When I first started many many years ago in the late 80's the Independent Sr Boys BB league had as many as 4 schools in it (ND, STM, VC, St Pats) but STM, ST Pat's, & ND decided for their own reasons that they wanted to compete at the AA or A level and in the early 2000's the AAA Sr Boys Ind league was down to two teams (VC & Saints). STM came back to the AAA Ind league for a few years (2005 to 2009 I think) but has once again decided to go back to AA.

Thanks for your answer Ebe. Though it still not clear why the Vancouver Secondary Schools Athletic Association does not allow the Independents to play it really does paint a bigger picture as to where the problems are and as much as we want to bitch about it being a local squabble involving a hnadful of basketball schools, the answers and solutions are likely to be found at a provincial level.


Thanks for this background Ebe, I appreciate that you are helping fill in the blanks, especially for those who did not grow up here. What you describe sounds similar to the CISAA in the Toronto area where there is an independent league for sports. As is the case here, they do eventually play for the provincial championship against public schools. In their basketball league there are 8 AAA equivalent teams such as Upper Canada College, Ridley and St. Michael's. Some schools take the sport more seriously than others and St. Michael's, which is similar to VC, usually fields a very strong team. The other independents are usually fodder for the better public schools. With eight teams it is a viable league.

The problem for the AAA independent teams in Vancouver is that there are only two schools. I understand why the leagues are separated, and when there are sufficient number of teams, it does make sense to play among themselves. However, when there are not enough teams in an area, it would seem to be in the interests of all to permit independent schools to play with others. VC's football program is a good example of an independent school playing against public schools when a one-team league would not be viable.

It is clear that there is animosity dating back a long time - likely for good reason on both sides. As a newcomer, the old bitterness is lost on me. It would seem to me that there is a simple solution within reach and that is to invite the two independents to play in the Vancouver league. It would require some grace and a show of contrition from both sides, but it seems to be a fair-minded solution, and one preferable to taking extraordinary efforts and motions and legal proceedings (by both sides) to ostracize two schools in an unworkable two-team league.

While I do appreciate the history of never having allowed independent school to play as full members, I do not see any current barrier to extending an offer to play. Is there some reason why the Lower Mainland leagues could not extend that offer?



There is always a solution that 2 conflicting parties can work toward. The grace that Mark refers to on the part of the Lower Mainland Independent schools is a good start........but St. George's needs to ask itself what is it willing to give up.

One of the main issues is the fact that many , or some, St. Georg'es players are receiving Athletic scholarship money. Everyone knows it was an inducement for Emerson and Bol to play at St. George's, and everyone knows that it is still going on today. I think that if an athlete is playing ball at St. George's, then the school needs to be fully transparent that that athlete is not receiving ANY financial support. That is, they and/or their family is paying full tuition to attend St. Georges' This simple give by St. George's would take a lot of uncertaintly out of how many players are actually receving some form of financial assistance (and to what level) to go to St. Georges.

I have said previously that any kid who transfers form outside of the city (lets say Kelowna), is a known basketball player, to attend St. George's in their GRADE 10 year is very suspicious, and it is probable that that individual is indeed receiving financial assistance of some sort (how much, nobody knows??).

Barring all financial assistance for athletes, who are competing against public school kids would be a great start.

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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:27 pm

Making it free for a kid to go to st. george's is simply making it a level playing field with the public schools. It is waaaay easier for kids to get recruited to a public school...they dont have to pay....just switch. It would seem more likely and easier for kids to attend any public school of their choice(basketball reason) than having to come up with tuition/scholarship$ etc...I'm not saying its right that it happens at vc and stg's but just more likley recruiting happens in the public system. Don't just focus on the gr.9/10 that transfer....how about gr. 6/7 players that somehow end up at another catchment school. Isn't that recruiting??? Do some research on elementary aged basketball programs run throughout the lower mainland...kid A is in one schools catchment but ends up at another high school cuz he attended so and so's youth club. It happens way more than high school transfers. We just don't notice it cuz they aren't in the high school basketball scene yet. Something to think about.
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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:51 pm

Don't get your hopes up guys. The LM publics are trying to branch off. It'll give the likes of Kits & Churchill a huge recruiting advantage. Why would a kid want to play at an independent and have a 50% shot of making the BC's when they could be recruited to a public school and get in by default.
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