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 LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action

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baller1000



Posts : 76
Join date : 2010-03-11

PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:11 pm

Sportvictoria wrote:
stocktonsshorts wrote:
baller1000 wrote:
hard2thehole wrote:
It seems like howies latest article covers at least one of the proposals that Saints rejected

"The LMHSBBA first produced a 12-team public school-only draw, which then proposed that Saints play a series of sudden-death games against its lowest-finishing teams, by which, if successfully navigated, would give them a spot in the B.C. tournament draw. The Saints, however, insisted they be included in the main portion of the Lower Mainland draw.

The two sides were at lagerheads, and on Sunday afternoon, the LMHSBBA issued the following email: “The Lower Mainland High School Boys Basketball Association is unable to produce a playoff draw for our “AAA’ tournament due to potential legal action from one of our member schools, St. George’s.”

The LMHSBBA then turned over its public school seedings to the Independent League and let them take care of producing the draw."


So the LMHSBBA produced a 12 team PUBLIC SCHOOL ONLY draw.

That means VC, which had earned a berth to the LM, was not included in what the LM proposed.

It is no surprise then this was rejected by the independents. It is also clear that the LM was attempting to not only keep Saints out of the tournament. Instead they chose the opportunity provided by a gutless BCHSBBA, that provided no direction, to also maneuver VC out as well.

Is it any wonder that the independents balked when presented with these types of proposals. Mr. Eberhardt's assertions that this is all about the kids seem somewhat hollow.

Did you see the draw?
I did.

12 team draw with the five top seeds advancing to a berthing tournament.
Berthing tournament:
independant #1 directly to the final vs. public #1
with the remaining 4 seeds and independant #2 battling for the remaining 3 berths to the BC's.

Does this really seam unreasonable?

VC a direct berth to the final. And Saints in with the other 4 seeds (who in the eyes of many on this forum they are clearly superior than) battling for 3 berths. No 5 game gauntlet to run just an opportunity which is what they wanted.

Apparently not GOOD ENOUGH. Are you honestly surprised people are frustrated??

I thought that is was a FANTASTIC option. Don't know why SG refused it.


Both VC and Saints were excluded from the Lower Mainland Tournament. Obviously, that's why they refused. They are part of the LM zone but not given an opportunity to play in the tournament. Apparently that is all they want. And all the LM wanted from the outset was to exclude them both, by having them play in a "berthing tournament".

It seems the independents just want to earn their way into the BC's like everyone else. If they accepted a proposal that excluded them from the tournament but guaranteed them a top placing, I am certain that the same people that are here arguing they should have taken that option, would be screaming foul. That option was a joke and probably a trap.

As it stands now, there are no guarantees for either team and that is fair, reasonable and inclusive.

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And 1



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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:21 pm

HOLD ON...St Georges didnt make the draw...THEY LOST !!!!!! what part of that is confusing ???



baller1000 wrote:
Sportvictoria wrote:
stocktonsshorts wrote:
baller1000 wrote:
hard2thehole wrote:
It seems like howies latest article covers at least one of the proposals that Saints rejected

"The LMHSBBA first produced a 12-team public school-only draw, which then proposed that Saints play a series of sudden-death games against its lowest-finishing teams, by which, if successfully navigated, would give them a spot in the B.C. tournament draw. The Saints, however, insisted they be included in the main portion of the Lower Mainland draw.

The two sides were at lagerheads, and on Sunday afternoon, the LMHSBBA issued the following email: “The Lower Mainland High School Boys Basketball Association is unable to produce a playoff draw for our “AAA’ tournament due to potential legal action from one of our member schools, St. George’s.”

The LMHSBBA then turned over its public school seedings to the Independent League and let them take care of producing the draw."


So the LMHSBBA produced a 12 team PUBLIC SCHOOL ONLY draw.

That means VC, which had earned a berth to the LM, was not included in what the LM proposed.

It is no surprise then this was rejected by the independents. It is also clear that the LM was attempting to not only keep Saints out of the tournament. Instead they chose the opportunity provided by a gutless BCHSBBA, that provided no direction, to also maneuver VC out as well.

Is it any wonder that the independents balked when presented with these types of proposals. Mr. Eberhardt's assertions that this is all about the kids seem somewhat hollow.

Did you see the draw?
I did.

12 team draw with the five top seeds advancing to a berthing tournament.
Berthing tournament:
independant #1 directly to the final vs. public #1
with the remaining 4 seeds and independant #2 battling for the remaining 3 berths to the BC's.

Does this really seam unreasonable?

VC a direct berth to the final. And Saints in with the other 4 seeds (who in the eyes of many on this forum they are clearly superior than) battling for 3 berths. No 5 game gauntlet to run just an opportunity which is what they wanted.

Apparently not GOOD ENOUGH. Are you honestly surprised people are frustrated??

I thought that is was a FANTASTIC option. Don't know why SG refused it.


Both VC and Saints were excluded from the Lower Mainland Tournament. Obviously, that's why they refused. They are part of the LM zone but not given an opportunity to play in the tournament. Apparently that is all they want. And all the LM wanted from the outset was to exclude them both, by having them play in a "berthing tournament".

It seems the independents just want to earn their way into the BC's like everyone else. If they accepted a proposal that excluded them from the tournament but guaranteed them a top placing, I am certain that the same people that are here arguing they should have taken that option, would be screaming foul. That option was a joke and probably a trap.

As it stands now, there are no guarantees for either team and that is fair, reasonable and inclusive.

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hard2thehole



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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:32 pm

baller1000 wrote:
Sportvictoria wrote:
stocktonsshorts wrote:
baller1000 wrote:
hard2thehole wrote:
It seems like howies latest article covers at least one of the proposals that Saints rejected

"The LMHSBBA first produced a 12-team public school-only draw, which then proposed that Saints play a series of sudden-death games against its lowest-finishing teams, by which, if successfully navigated, would give them a spot in the B.C. tournament draw. The Saints, however, insisted they be included in the main portion of the Lower Mainland draw.

The two sides were at lagerheads, and on Sunday afternoon, the LMHSBBA issued the following email: “The Lower Mainland High School Boys Basketball Association is unable to produce a playoff draw for our “AAA’ tournament due to potential legal action from one of our member schools, St. George’s.”

The LMHSBBA then turned over its public school seedings to the Independent League and let them take care of producing the draw."


So the LMHSBBA produced a 12 team PUBLIC SCHOOL ONLY draw.

That means VC, which had earned a berth to the LM, was not included in what the LM proposed.

It is no surprise then this was rejected by the independents. It is also clear that the LM was attempting to not only keep Saints out of the tournament. Instead they chose the opportunity provided by a gutless BCHSBBA, that provided no direction, to also maneuver VC out as well.

Is it any wonder that the independents balked when presented with these types of proposals. Mr. Eberhardt's assertions that this is all about the kids seem somewhat hollow.

Did you see the draw?
I did.

12 team draw with the five top seeds advancing to a berthing tournament.
Berthing tournament:
independant #1 directly to the final vs. public #1
with the remaining 4 seeds and independant #2 battling for the remaining 3 berths to the BC's.

Does this really seam unreasonable?

VC a direct berth to the final. And Saints in with the other 4 seeds (who in the eyes of many on this forum they are clearly superior than) battling for 3 berths. No 5 game gauntlet to run just an opportunity which is what they wanted.

Apparently not GOOD ENOUGH. Are you honestly surprised people are frustrated??

I thought that is was a FANTASTIC option. Don't know why SG refused it.


Both VC and Saints were excluded from the Lower Mainland Tournament. Obviously, that's why they refused. They are part of the LM zone but not given an opportunity to play in the tournament. Apparently that is all they want. And all the LM wanted from the outset was to exclude them both, by having them play in a "berthing tournament".

It seems the independents just want to earn their way into the BC's like everyone else. If they accepted a proposal that excluded them from the tournament but guaranteed them a top placing, I am certain that the same people that are here arguing they should have taken that option, would be screaming foul. That option was a joke and probably a trap.

As it stands now, there are no guarantees for either team and that is fair, reasonable and inclusive.




Saints did not qualify for LM's, but thru the guidelines set out by the higher powers they were supposed to be given a chance to qualify for provincials. Nowhere did they set out that Saints HAD TO BE in the draw. They just had to be given a chance to fight to get into the dance, and that proposal was a golden opportunity imo.


and im sure mr disbrow was sooooo upset that he got to skip all the BS and get a direct trip to the finals without the possibility of suffering an injury playing some crappy team. give me a break!!!

sadly, this seems like a case of the private schools and its fans playing the victim card when they were offered a great option and REFUSED like little babies
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Sportvictoria



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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:05 pm

And 1 wrote:
HOLD ON...St Georges didnt make the draw...THEY LOST !!!!!! what part of that is confusing ???


Nail on the head!
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Sportvictoria



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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:07 pm

hard2thehole wrote:


Saints did not qualify for LM's, but thru the guidelines set out by the higher powers they were supposed to be given a chance to qualify for provincials. Nowhere did they set out that Saints HAD TO BE in the draw. They just had to be given a chance to fight to get into the dance, and that proposal was a golden opportunity imo.


and im sure mr disbrow was sooooo upset that he got to skip all the BS and get a direct trip to the finals without the possibility of suffering an injury playing some crappy team. give me a break!!!

sadly, this seems like a case of the private schools and its fans playing the victim card when they were offered a great option and REFUSED like little babies



Well said.
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baller1000



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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:31 pm

hard2thehole wrote:
baller1000 wrote:
Sportvictoria wrote:
stocktonsshorts wrote:
baller1000 wrote:
hard2thehole wrote:
It seems like howies latest article covers at least one of the proposals that Saints rejected

"The LMHSBBA first produced a 12-team public school-only draw, which then proposed that Saints play a series of sudden-death games against its lowest-finishing teams, by which, if successfully navigated, would give them a spot in the B.C. tournament draw. The Saints, however, insisted they be included in the main portion of the Lower Mainland draw.

The two sides were at lagerheads, and on Sunday afternoon, the LMHSBBA issued the following email: “The Lower Mainland High School Boys Basketball Association is unable to produce a playoff draw for our “AAA’ tournament due to potential legal action from one of our member schools, St. George’s.”

The LMHSBBA then turned over its public school seedings to the Independent League and let them take care of producing the draw."


So the LMHSBBA produced a 12 team PUBLIC SCHOOL ONLY draw.

That means VC, which had earned a berth to the LM, was not included in what the LM proposed.

It is no surprise then this was rejected by the independents. It is also clear that the LM was attempting to not only keep Saints out of the tournament. Instead they chose the opportunity provided by a gutless BCHSBBA, that provided no direction, to also maneuver VC out as well.

Is it any wonder that the independents balked when presented with these types of proposals. Mr. Eberhardt's assertions that this is all about the kids seem somewhat hollow.

Did you see the draw?
I did.

12 team draw with the five top seeds advancing to a berthing tournament.
Berthing tournament:
independant #1 directly to the final vs. public #1
with the remaining 4 seeds and independant #2 battling for the remaining 3 berths to the BC's.

Does this really seam unreasonable?

VC a direct berth to the final. And Saints in with the other 4 seeds (who in the eyes of many on this forum they are clearly superior than) battling for 3 berths. No 5 game gauntlet to run just an opportunity which is what they wanted.

Apparently not GOOD ENOUGH. Are you honestly surprised people are frustrated??

I thought that is was a FANTASTIC option. Don't know why SG refused it.


Both VC and Saints were excluded from the Lower Mainland Tournament. Obviously, that's why they refused. They are part of the LM zone but not given an opportunity to play in the tournament. Apparently that is all they want. And all the LM wanted from the outset was to exclude them both, by having them play in a "berthing tournament".

It seems the independents just want to earn their way into the BC's like everyone else. If they accepted a proposal that excluded them from the tournament but guaranteed them a top placing, I am certain that the same people that are here arguing they should have taken that option, would be screaming foul. That option was a joke and probably a trap.

As it stands now, there are no guarantees for either team and that is fair, reasonable and inclusive.




Saints did not qualify for LM's, but thru the guidelines set out by the higher powers they were supposed to be given a chance to qualify for provincials. Nowhere did they set out that Saints HAD TO BE in the draw. They just had to be given a chance to fight to get into the dance, and that proposal was a golden opportunity imo.


and im sure mr disbrow was sooooo upset that he got to skip all the BS and get a direct trip to the finals without the possibility of suffering an injury playing some crappy team. give me a break!!!

sadly, this seems like a case of the private schools and its fans playing the victim card when they were offered a great option and REFUSED like little babies

Well as usual, these statements make absolutely no sense.

What is your point exactly? You seem to be saying that the reason they refused this option was so.....what? That Disbrow would get the possibility of an injury and so that they could play the victim?

No one is playing the victim here. The only ones behaving like babies are the LM.

They were told to obey the guidelines by the board. VC had earned its spot in the LM. Saints is a top ranked team and was entitled a shot and wanted to be included. The LM's answer was to be even more exclusive and exclude VC, as well as Saints, from the tournament. As posted here, the LM offered up a guranteed berth to the BC's for VC if they accepted that. Evidently, that was turned down, because it is not fair or sportsmanlike.

Instead VC and Saints are now battling for the BC's like everyone else with no guarantees they will make it. Neither the independents or their fans are pretending to be victims or crying like babies.

The only ones doing that are some of the posters here and the cabal of LM coaches that walked away from the tournament when they did not get their way.
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And 1



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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:37 pm

baller1000 wrote:
hard2thehole wrote:
baller1000 wrote:
Sportvictoria wrote:
stocktonsshorts wrote:
baller1000 wrote:
hard2thehole wrote:
It seems like howies latest article covers at least one of the proposals that Saints rejected

"The LMHSBBA first produced a 12-team public school-only draw, which then proposed that Saints play a series of sudden-death games against its lowest-finishing teams, by which, if successfully navigated, would give them a spot in the B.C. tournament draw. The Saints, however, insisted they be included in the main portion of the Lower Mainland draw.

The two sides were at lagerheads, and on Sunday afternoon, the LMHSBBA issued the following email: “The Lower Mainland High School Boys Basketball Association is unable to produce a playoff draw for our “AAA’ tournament due to potential legal action from one of our member schools, St. George’s.”

The LMHSBBA then turned over its public school seedings to the Independent League and let them take care of producing the draw."


So the LMHSBBA produced a 12 team PUBLIC SCHOOL ONLY draw.


Once again i say ...THEY LOST ....what part of that is confusing..St Georges LOST !!!!!!!!

That means VC, which had earned a berth to the LM, was not included in what the LM proposed.

It is no surprise then this was rejected by the independents. It is also clear that the LM was attempting to not only keep Saints out of the tournament. Instead they chose the opportunity provided by a gutless BCHSBBA, that provided no direction, to also maneuver VC out as well.

Is it any wonder that the independents balked when presented with these types of proposals. Mr. Eberhardt's assertions that this is all about the kids seem somewhat hollow.

Did you see the draw?
I did.

12 team draw with the five top seeds advancing to a berthing tournament.
Berthing tournament:
independant #1 directly to the final vs. public #1
with the remaining 4 seeds and independant #2 battling for the remaining 3 berths to the BC's.

Does this really seam unreasonable?

VC a direct berth to the final. And Saints in with the other 4 seeds (who in the eyes of many on this forum they are clearly superior than) battling for 3 berths. No 5 game gauntlet to run just an opportunity which is what they wanted.

Apparently not GOOD ENOUGH. Are you honestly surprised people are frustrated??

I thought that is was a FANTASTIC option. Don't know why SG refused it.


Both VC and Saints were excluded from the Lower Mainland Tournament. Obviously, that's why they refused. They are part of the LM zone but not given an opportunity to play in the tournament. Apparently that is all they want. And all the LM wanted from the outset was to exclude them both, by having them play in a "berthing tournament".

It seems the independents just want to earn their way into the BC's like everyone else. If they accepted a proposal that excluded them from the tournament but guaranteed them a top placing, I am certain that the same people that are here arguing they should have taken that option, would be screaming foul. That option was a joke and probably a trap.

As it stands now, there are no guarantees for either team and that is fair, reasonable and inclusive.




Saints did not qualify for LM's, but thru the guidelines set out by the higher powers they were supposed to be given a chance to qualify for provincials. Nowhere did they set out that Saints HAD TO BE in the draw. They just had to be given a chance to fight to get into the dance, and that proposal was a golden opportunity imo.


and im sure mr disbrow was sooooo upset that he got to skip all the BS and get a direct trip to the finals without the possibility of suffering an injury playing some crappy team. give me a break!!!

sadly, this seems like a case of the private schools and its fans playing the victim card when they were offered a great option and REFUSED like little babies

Well as usual, these statements make absolutely no sense.

What is your point exactly? You seem to be saying that the reason they refused this option was so.....what? That Disbrow would get the possibility of an injury and so that they could play the victim?

No one is playing the victim here. The only ones behaving like babies are the LM.

They were told to obey the guidelines by the board. VC had earned its spot in the LM. Saints is a top ranked team and was entitled a shot and wanted to be included. The LM's answer was to be even more exclusive and exclude VC, as well as Saints, from the tournament. As posted here, the LM offered up a guranteed berth to the BC's for VC if they accepted that. Evidently, that was turned down, because it is not fair or sportsmanlike.

Instead VC and Saints are now battling for the BC's like everyone else with no guarantees they will make it. Neither the independents or their fans are pretending to be victims or crying like babies.

The only ones doing that are some of the posters here and the cabal of LM coaches that walked away from the tournament when they did not get their way.
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Sportvictoria



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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:40 pm

baller1000 wrote:
Well as usual, these statements make absolutely no sense.

What is your point exactly? You seem to be saying that the reason they refused this option was so.....what? That Disbrow would get the possibility of an injury and so that they could play the victim?

No one is playing the victim here. The only ones behaving like babies are the LM.

They were told to obey the guidelines by the board. VC had earned its spot in the LM. Saints is a top ranked team and was entitled a shot and wanted to be included. The LM's answer was to be even more exclusive and exclude VC, as well as Saints, from the tournament. As posted here, the LM offered up a guranteed berth to the BC's for VC if they accepted that. Evidently, that was turned down, because it is not fair or sportsmanlike.

Instead VC and Saints are now battling for the BC's like everyone else with no guarantees they will make it. Neither the independents or their fans are pretending to be victims or crying like babies.

The only ones doing that are some of the posters here and the cabal of LM coaches that walked away from the tournament when they did not get their way.


As usual baller1000, you make unfounded assumptions, you only read some parts (or maybe you read it all and then selectively exclude parts so that things can be taken out of context) and you guess in the lack of evidence then try to state it as fact.

People have posted stuff here that were ACTUALLY IN THE MEETINGS and you choose to ignore that information and go with supposition and conjecture.
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Omniscient



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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:42 pm

I have read this site for years, but have never felt the need to say anything until now. This is such garbage.

So, some thoughts and questions:

1) Saints did not qualify for the LM tournament. It is as simple as that.

2) Does the provision in the rules that allowed Handsworth to challenge for a spot in Provincials state that it also allows for a team to also challenge for a zone berth? I was under the impression that it was for Provincials, not a zone berth.

3) McMath, Hamber, McNair, Burnaby Central, Magee, etc also did not qualify for the LM tournament; do we hear them complaining or crying? They knew what they had to do to qualify, and fell short of their goal. There are so many life lessons learned there. What are we teaching kids when we fail, that but because we have money, we can "unfail"??. Is that a positive life lesson to learn?
McMath is a strong team, that holds victories over teams that are in the LM playoffs. However, they did not get the job done when it mattered. I totally respect them for not crying about it.

4) The Provincial Tournament is not only about all of the best teams in the Province. It is a Provincial Tournament, it is for the best teams in the Province, based upon regional jurisdictions. You need to advance out of your region to qualify. Again, Saints failed to do this.

5) This all reaks of entitlement from the Saints perspective. This is wrong.
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Sim



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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:12 pm

Classic case of inmates running the asylum. Should've been expected from LM.
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asiseeit



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PostSubject: Hi Omniscient: Well put, and it is nice to have you "jump in" to this mess.   Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:54 pm

Omniscient wrote:
I have read this site for years, but have never felt the need to say anything until now. This is such garbage.

So, some thoughts and questions:

1) Saints did not qualify for the LM tournament. It is as simple as that.

2) Does the provision in the rules that allowed Handsworth to challenge for a spot in Provincials state that it also allows for a team to also challenge for a zone berth? I was under the impression that it was for Provincials, not a zone berth.

3) McMath, Hamber, McNair, Burnaby Central, Magee, etc also did not qualify for the LM tournament; do we hear them complaining or crying? They knew what they had to do to qualify, and fell short of their goal. There are so many life lessons learned there. What are we teaching kids when we fail, that but because we have money, we can "unfail"??. Is that a positive life lesson to learn?
McMath is a strong team, that holds victories over teams that are in the LM playoffs. However, they did not get the job done when it mattered. I totally respect them for not crying about it.

4) The Provincial Tournament is not only about all of the best teams in the Province. It is a Provincial Tournament, it is for the best teams in the Province, based upon regional jurisdictions. You need to advance out of your region to qualify. Again, Saints failed to do this.

5) This all reaks of entitlement from the Saints perspective. This is wrong.
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Sportvictoria



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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:59 pm

Omniscient wrote:
I have read this site for years, but have never felt the need to say anything until now. This is such garbage.

So, some thoughts and questions:

1) Saints did not qualify for the LM tournament. It is as simple as that.

2) Does the provision in the rules that allowed Handsworth to challenge for a spot in Provincials state that it also allows for a team to also challenge for a zone berth? I was under the impression that it was for Provincials, not a zone berth.

3) McMath, Hamber, McNair, Burnaby Central, Magee, etc also did not qualify for the LM tournament; do we hear them complaining or crying? They knew what they had to do to qualify, and fell short of their goal. There are so many life lessons learned there. What are we teaching kids when we fail, that but because we have money, we can "unfail"??. Is that a positive life lesson to learn?
McMath is a strong team, that holds victories over teams that are in the LM playoffs. However, they did not get the job done when it mattered. I totally respect them for not crying about it.

4) The Provincial Tournament is not only about all of the best teams in the Province. It is a Provincial Tournament, it is for the best teams in the Province, based upon regional jurisdictions. You need to advance out of your region to qualify. Again, Saints failed to do this.

5) This all reaks of entitlement from the Saints perspective. This is wrong.

Omni,

There are actually two rules in question here. The provincial body has a rule for small ZONES. These are zones that only receive 1 berth (North Central, North West, OK, Koot and Howe Sound). In the case of these area a team can make an application 8 days in advance of the early February berthing meeting for an 'exception'. They have some criteria to meet to show their area is warrented to an additional 1/2 berth (as was the case a few years ago when Howe Sound 2 ended up playing Fraser Valley 7).

The Lower Mainland has a rule that a team that is in a 1 berth LEAGUE can apply to the LMHSBBA for a 2nd berth into the 12-team Lower Mainland tournament. They school applies to the LMHSBBA for an 'exemption'. If they do not like the result fo the decision, they can appeal to the BCHSBBA and if they do not like their decision they can appeal to the BCHSBBA Board of Governors.

It was the Board of Governors that said St. George's should get another chance to qualify for the BCs after they failed to do so the first time.

Through all this, St. George's brough in a lawyer and legal action was threatened against the VOLUNTEER coaches (that are mostly school teachers) that make up the LMHSBBA.

Ever since the BC Championships moved to 20 teams from 16 they have not had 1/2 berths and it is strickly done on population basis. This eliminates the politics that used to go on behind the scene.

Lyle Dhur
Sportvictoria
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Mark Scott



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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:03 pm

Sportvictoria wrote:
Omniscient wrote:
I have read this site for years, but have never felt the need to say anything until now. This is such garbage.

So, some thoughts and questions:

1) Saints did not qualify for the LM tournament. It is as simple as that.

2) Does the provision in the rules that allowed Handsworth to challenge for a spot in Provincials state that it also allows for a team to also challenge for a zone berth? I was under the impression that it was for Provincials, not a zone berth.

3) McMath, Hamber, McNair, Burnaby Central, Magee, etc also did not qualify for the LM tournament; do we hear them complaining or crying? They knew what they had to do to qualify, and fell short of their goal. There are so many life lessons learned there. What are we teaching kids when we fail, that but because we have money, we can "unfail"??. Is that a positive life lesson to learn?
McMath is a strong team, that holds victories over teams that are in the LM playoffs. However, they did not get the job done when it mattered. I totally respect them for not crying about it.

4) The Provincial Tournament is not only about all of the best teams in the Province. It is a Provincial Tournament, it is for the best teams in the Province, based upon regional jurisdictions. You need to advance out of your region to qualify. Again, Saints failed to do this.

5) This all reaks of entitlement from the Saints perspective. This is wrong.

Omni,

There are actually two rules in question here. The provincial body has a rule for small ZONES. These are zones that only receive 1 berth (North Central, North West, OK, Koot and Howe Sound). In the case of these area a team can make an application 8 days in advance of the early February berthing meeting for an 'exception'. They have some criteria to meet to show their area is warrented to an additional 1/2 berth (as was the case a few years ago when Howe Sound 2 ended up playing Fraser Valley 7).

The Lower Mainland has a rule that a team that is in a 1 berth LEAGUE can apply to the LMHSBBA for a 2nd berth into the 12-team Lower Mainland tournament. They school applies to the LMHSBBA for an 'exemption'. If they do not like the result fo the decision, they can appeal to the BCHSBBA and if they do not like their decision they can appeal to the BCHSBBA Board of Governors.

It was the Board of Governors that said St. George's should get another chance to qualify for the BCs after they failed to do so the first time.

Through all this, St. George's brough in a lawyer and legal action was threatened against the VOLUNTEER coaches (that are mostly school teachers) that make up the LMHSBBA.

Ever since the BC Championships moved to 20 teams from 16 they have not had 1/2 berths and it is strickly done on population basis. This eliminates the politics that used to go on behind the scene.

Lyle Dhur
Sportvictoria

As long as you are playing the victim card here Lyle..... which group of VOLUNTEER coaches lawyered up first? Think back a bit.....

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Sportvictoria



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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:06 pm

Mark Scott wrote:

As long as you are playing the victim card here Lyle..... which group of VOLUNTEER coaches lawyered up first? Think back a bit.....



NOT playing the victim Mark.
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asiseeit



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PostSubject: Today's province from coach Paul Eb......   Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:14 pm

Q: What are the ramifications of what has been a very emotional process for both sides?

A: I think that the way this has happened, particularly being threatened with legal action, that takes it to an unfortunate level. And I think there are some people out there who will be looking at the complete separation of the public and private schools in the Triple A Lower Mainland zone.

Q: What might happen next?

A: This will be up to people to decide. My guess is that there will be some motions coming forward from our AGM to deal with what has happened. I would also like to say personally that I think when you go to the level of suing your own association, or threatening legally against your own volunteer association, I don’t believe that that is ever an appropriate way to go, ever. We can disagree completely, but ultimately you hammer it out and work out a compromise and respect the process.”
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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:45 pm

asiseeit wrote:
Q: What are the ramifications of what has been a very emotional process for both sides?

A: I think that the way this has happened, particularly being threatened with legal action, that takes it to an unfortunate level. And I think there are some people out there who will be looking at the complete separation of the public and private schools in the Triple A Lower Mainland zone.

Q: What might happen next?

A: This will be up to people to decide. My guess is that there will be some motions coming forward from our AGM to deal with what has happened. I would also like to say personally that I think when you go to the level of suing your own association, or threatening legally against your own volunteer association, I don’t believe that that is ever an appropriate way to go, ever. We can disagree completely, but ultimately you hammer it out and work out a compromise and respect the process.”



Not likely to be just in the Lower Mainalnd. It will most likely stretch province-wide at the AAA level.
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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:53 pm

[quote="Omniscient"]I have read this site for years, but have never felt the need to say anything until now. This is such garbage.

So, some thoughts and questions:

1) Saints did not qualify for the LM tournament. It is as simple as that.

2) Does the provision in the rules that allowed Handsworth to challenge for a spot in Provincials state that it also allows for a team to also challenge for a zone berth? I was under the impression that it was for Provincials, not a zone berth.

3) McMath, Hamber, McNair, Burnaby Central, Magee, etc also did not qualify for the LM tournament; do we hear them complaining or crying? They knew what they had to do to qualify, and fell short of their goal. There are so many life lessons learned there. What are we teaching kids when we fail, that but because we have money, we can "unfail"??. Is that a positive life lesson to learn?
McMath is a strong team, that holds victories over teams that are in the LM playoffs. However, they did not get the job done when it mattered. I totally respect them for not crying about it.

4) The Provincial Tournament is not only about all of the best teams in the Province. It is a Provincial Tournament, it is for the best teams in the Province, based upon regional jurisdictions. You need to advance out of your region to qualify. Again, Saints failed to do this.

5) This all reaks of entitlement from the Saints perspective. This is wrong.[/quote]

Hamber actually did qualify for the LM tournament. Other than that, I completely agree with your statements. What is the point in even playing VC through out the regular season if Saints is just going to protest if they lose? Also, baller1000 and Mark Scott get a grip. There is no way this is fair.

PS: Mark, you really need to spend less time on this site.
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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:35 am

CharlesII wrote:
Omniscient wrote:
I have read this site for years, but have never felt the need to say anything until now. This is such garbage.

So, some thoughts and questions:

1) Saints did not qualify for the LM tournament. It is as simple as that.

2) Does the provision in the rules that allowed Handsworth to challenge for a spot in Provincials state that it also allows for a team to also challenge for a zone berth? I was under the impression that it was for Provincials, not a zone berth.

3) McMath, Hamber, McNair, Burnaby Central, Magee, etc also did not qualify for the LM tournament; do we hear them complaining or crying? They knew what they had to do to qualify, and fell short of their goal. There are so many life lessons learned there. What are we teaching kids when we fail, that but because we have money, we can "unfail"??. Is that a positive life lesson to learn?
McMath is a strong team, that holds victories over teams that are in the LM playoffs. However, they did not get the job done when it mattered. I totally respect them for not crying about it.

4) The Provincial Tournament is not only about all of the best teams in the Province. It is a Provincial Tournament, it is for the best teams in the Province, based upon regional jurisdictions. You need to advance out of your region to qualify. Again, Saints failed to do this.

5) This all reaks of entitlement from the Saints perspective. This is wrong.

Hamber actually did qualify for the LM tournament. Other than that, I completely agree with your statements. What is the point in even playing VC through out the regular season if Saints is just going to protest if they lose? Also, baller1000 and Mark Scott get a grip. There is no way this is fair.

PS: Mark, you really need to spend less time on this site.


You're right, it's not fair. Its stupid. The guidelines in place to get highly ranked teams in a two team league a chance at the zone championship were not followed by the LM governing body (until forced by the BC basketball board of governors). St George's should have been in the tournament from the start given their number 3 ranking in the province. However, bullying their way into the tournament under threat of lawsuit is a dreadful way to handle the situation. Personally, I'd rather be excluded then get in that way.
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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:02 am

Do St. G's and VC ever apply to be in an actual league besides the Independent League prior to the season starting? Just curious. If not, they should not complain when their two-team league doesn't get a berth to the LM's. It is run just like any other league in that regard, based on amount of schools in their league.

However, if they have applied and been rejected every year, then they may have something here, but taking potential legal action was not a good way to go about doing it.

Also, for those that argue that all the stud players are recruited to certain schools, and those that argue that no one is recruited, I'd like to say it is probably somewhere in the middle, but it doesn't just happen at private schools. I'm sure players talk in the off-season and talk about playing ball at the same school together, this is considered recruiting in the rule book if one player is trying to get another to their school, and I'm sure, at private and public schools alike, there is some recruiting done by coaches or parents or AD's. I don't think it is one extreme or the other, though. I just think it happens, and it sucks that it does, but that's the way some people/players are, they want to win that badly. I don't agree with this, and will never ever condone recruiting. However, I also can see how a player would choose to go to a successful and attractive program on their own, because they want to play for the best to be the best.

Just some of my random thoughts.
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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:24 am

As has been pointed out more than once here, one solution to avoid all of this is to let VC and Saints play in one of the lower mainland leagues. But they won't let them in and so there they are in a two team league.

What all of this comes down to is a cabal of LM schools that hate VC and Saints and they have shown they will do whatever they can to exclude them, frustrate their efforts and keep them out of the LM and the BC's. I don't know where the hate stems from but it has clearly existed for a long time. It is so deep rooted that no amount of reason can overcome the animosity.

Given that circumstance, when reasonable people make reasonable requests based on established rules and repeatedly get shafted, then something has to give. A Saints rep said publicly the other day, that they did not threaten legal action. Whether they did or just said that they had legal advice I don't know. Whatever the case, they obviously felt they were wronged and given the unreasonable actions of the LM in past years and again this year, Saints were not prepared to be bullied again.

Saints deserves to be in the tournament based on established rules, their ranking and basic fairness. (read the rules and bylaws before you respond that they didn't get the job done)

No more explicit example of the type of behavior of the LM need be given, than their attempt to exclude VC from the 12 team LM tournament this year AFTER they had won their league and earned their berth. After being told by the board to sort out the Saints mess, the solution offered by the LM was to also exclude VC??? And the LM then express surprise that the independents turned it down? And then walk away from hosting their own tournament? And then issue a press release whining about being forced into something under threat of bankruptcy?

There were other options available to the LM but they chose, as usual, to make it as difficult as possible. It would be better to say that it is more likely that Saints was forced into something. I am sure they would have preferred to work this out amicably, but as the saying goes "you can lead a horse to water...".

This has been played out in the media in recent days both in TV and print. The LM is being seen in an increasingly unflattering light. More vitriol from Mr. Eberhart and of the type displayed on this board, will not help the LM going forward.

The tournament is now underway. Frankly, I would prefer to watch basketball than debate this further now. Rip me a new one if you want. Just don't tell me "it's about the kids" or "volunteer coaches".






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Sim



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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:52 am

Well said.
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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:37 am

very well put baller 1000...looks like LM starting to look like the bully here!
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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:22 pm

Fringe city schools like Churchill, Magee, Killarney, and Point Grey etc, don't want VC and Saints their league. It would drastically ruin their chances to qualify for the LM and possibly the provincials every year.

I say invite them in, expand to 16 teams. Check the egos at the door.

I happen to remember last years AAA MVP when he played on a different school in grade 8 and 9 then the one he finished at. All good basketball programs get good players wanting to come to play for them for many different reasons.
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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:53 pm

I have avoided enetering the debate here but I would like to respond to a few things. All I ask is that people post respectfully when making their comments

[quote]
baller1000 wrote:
As has been pointed out more than once here, one solution to avoid all of this is to let VC and Saints play in one of the lower mainland leagues. But they won't let them in and so there they are in a two team league.
- The fact that they are not in the Vancouver league has nothing to do with basketball coaches. The independants have never been in the Vancouver league in any sport at any time. There was a time when some indepndent teams were allowed to play an exhibition schedule within some vancouver leagues but they were never eligible for playoffs and at this point the Vancouver Athletic associaiton will not let them in even on an exhibition basis. The independent's have ther own league to play in: lmisaa.com Just so it is clear NONE of the members of the LMISSAA have ever been in the Vancouver league in any sport and this is not becasue of basketball coaches.

Quote :
Given that circumstance, when reasonable people make reasonable requests based on established rules and repeatedly get shafted, then something has to give. A Saints rep said publicly the other day, that they did not threaten legal action. Whether they did or just said that they had legal advice I don't know. Whatever the case, they obviously felt they were wronged and given the unreasonable actions of the LM in past years and again this year, Saints were not prepared to be bullied again.
St Georges absolutely threatened legal action, this is a fact 100% and we have the documantation to prove it.
You do not have a good understanding of the establiches rules. All of the proper procedures have been followed and the Independent League won their appeal at the third stage and thus the LM Association had to give them an opportunity to compete for a spot to the BC's. We did give them that opportunity at no point were they denied a chance to play. Unfortunately this was not to their satisfaction and thus they went to their lawyers and decided to go ahead and threaten with legal action. If a Saints representative said they did not threaten legal action then they must be confused because we have all of the documentation from their lawyers.

Quote :
Saints deserves to be in the tournament based on established rules, their ranking and basic fairness. (read the rules and bylaws before you respond that they didn't get the job done)
- You are right according to all of the rules, etc. they deserve an opportunity. It should also be pointed out that the independent league has had over a year to bring forth any suggestion or ideas as to how a tournament would take place if they were to win their appeal. They brought no suggestions forward at any time until 2 days prior to the tournament seeding date.

Quote :
And then walk away from hosting their own tournament? And then issue a press release whining about being forced into something under threat of bankruptcy?
- We did not walk away from our own tournament the directive came from BCHSBBA and we are following it

Quote :
The LM is being seen in an increasingly unflattering light.
- Based on the feedback I have been getting I would have to respectfully disagree with you on this one

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PostSubject: Re: LM "AAA" playoffs are on hold due to potential legal action   Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:40 pm

[quote=”Lower Mainland High School Boys Basketball Association”]: “It is most unfortunate that those who use the threat of legal action are rewarded for this type of behavior. Acting in the best interest of our member schools and their players and volunteer coaches, we were not prepared to bankrupt our association by having to hire lawyers. The limited resources we have go to cover the cost of operating our zone association and more importantly, providing scholarships to our graduating student-athletes.”


Please clarify how one can bankrupt a non-profit organization and how would not LM be able to defend this action if they have a valid argument? Is Saints seeking for any financial damages?

I suppose the guidelines is put together by a some legal professionals and since the LM have different interpretations than what the guideline has clearly stated, but insist on how LM Executive do not believe the Saints can be "reasonably" considered amongst the top three teams in the LM zone, then I would seek legal opinion to this ruling.

Saints was put into an absurd situation to play-in at a backdoor LM tournament last year. If they were included in the tournament and won three games in a row, they would have automatically qualified for a berth into BC. Saints is not about to go through this again providing they know what their rights is.
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