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 Edmonton Boys Playoffs

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Edmontonball



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PostSubject: Edmonton Boys Playoffs   Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:44 pm

Edmonton Metro League

Quarterfinals
(1) Paul Kane 76 vs. (8 ) Leduc 62
(5) Bev Facey 70 vs. (4) Sturgeon 60

(2) O'Leary 84 vs. (7) Salisbury 36
(3) St. FX 89 vs. St. Albert (47)

Semis
(1) Paul Kane vs. (5) Bev Facey Wednesday Ferbuary 29th 4:45pm
(2) O'Leary vs. (3) St. FX Wednesday February 29th 4:45pm

Edmonton Public League

Quarterfinals
(1) Harry Ainlay 98 (8 ) ME Lazerte 70
(4) Ross Shep 63 (5) Page 60

(2) Scona 71 (7) Memorial 56
(3) Jasper Place 88 (6) Edmonton Christian 74

Semis
(1) Harry Ainlay vs. (4) Ross Shep Thursday March 1st 5:00pm
(2) Scona vs. (3) Jasper Place Thursday March 1st 6:15pm
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cowtown23



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PostSubject: Re: Edmonton Boys Playoffs   Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:30 am

who won the semis? the results aren't posted on the websites
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localhoopfan



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PostSubject: Re: Edmonton Boys Playoffs   Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:58 pm

What's with the two different leagues in Edmonton?? How does that work for provincials (top 2 from each league?) and do the winners of each league play off for a city title?? Just curious.
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Bballjunkie



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PostSubject: Re: Edmonton Boys Playoffs   Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:46 pm

Paul Kane and O'Leary won last night in the Metro League. The semis are tonight in Edmonton Public.

Why the two leagues...because the powers that be for each league are too stubborn/boneheaded to reunite the two of them. It is ridiculous.
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TLU



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PostSubject: 2 Leagues   Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:08 pm

A valid point has been raised. My understanding of the situaiton is this.
The catholic division gets one team in automatically. therefore they have no desire to have one league where they would traditionally have to compete with Ross Shep, Ainlay, JP etc. If that were the case they may finish 4th or worse and not have an easy road to the provincials. Now you may say that the same thing could be true for the other leagues. Yes, but - it is my understanding that Edmonton public has been trying to merge the leagues for years and the Catholic division is the one that continually refuses. The same goes for football but a topic for another forum.
This is an embarrasment to Edmonton and they should be ashamed. They are not serving the best interests of anyone but themselves. Teams get better by playing better teams. If all the best teams were in one division it helps both the stronger teams and the weaker teams. You avoid all these lopsided games.
I believe that the decisions such as this should be made public and those principals, athletic directors, coaches who vote to continue with this pathetic arrangement should be outed. Perhaps I am wrong in my understanding and invite others for their input. It is an important topic and should be addressed.
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JD



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PostSubject: Re: Edmonton Boys Playoffs   Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:44 pm

There is far more to this as one should suspect. For one, Edmonton public is also assured 1 team as well. The winners of each league go to provincials but there are crossover games to determine seedings. As for reasons, some of the original reasons for the split no longer exist BUT, Edmonton metro has been gracious enough to allow all outlying schools such as St. Albert, leduc, Sherwood park etc to join. There are issues with league structure and who determines structure and participation. Coaches of individual sports in Metro have far more input than Edmonton public. There is also an issue of some schools worrying that the large schools and their agendas will supersede those schools that are smaller (bev facey, oleary both well under 2000 kids would be average size).
I do think at some point there will be an alignment and it will work out well for competition sake in some sports, but it will take some time. Some ADs worked hard to create Edmonton metro athletic association that met the needs, bylaws of ASAA and want to be sure that those needs are looked after for the future.
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Ominous



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PostSubject: Re: Edmonton Boys Playoffs   Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:38 am

I think these are all fair points. They way the structure goes no is relatively complex but still fair. The top teams from each league get automatically into Provincials and the remaining top three teams of each league have crossovers for berths and seeding. It works out well with, typically, the top teams in region heading to Provincials.

The only problem that seems to creep up is when you have a huge imbalance in the two leagues. For example, a couple of years ago Scona had a great team and after the berths were earned, they were on the outside looking in. They were probably better than the second team sent to Provincials from the Metro. But, in these leagues you really have to win your way in.

Typically, though, you have your top teams Shep, Ainley, JP and then O'Leary, PK, St. FX. There is also enough play between these schools in tournaments that there is a good idea of who the top teams are.
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TLU



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PostSubject: Re: Edmonton Boys Playoffs   Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:23 am

The real issues have not been addressed.
1. Having all the best teams in one league.
This allows the teams to get better, avoids having weaker teams get blown out every night which is a waste of time for the stronger and weaker teams. Who benefits from 30 - 50 point losses?
2. Politics
There is no valid or justifiable reason for this setup. As is stated in the previous post by JD, the Edmonton Metro has far more input than Edmonton public? Why would that be? Politics! They are playing politics with the kids. Politics is about power.
The argument that Edmonton Public gets a team in also is again irrelevant. The top teams should go to the provinicals. The only way to determine this is to have the best teams in one league. Right now one league could be very weak and the top team goes to provincials where 2 or 3 other strong teams in another league- don't go. Again I challenge anyone to deny this is the real reason. Edmonton Metro is scared that if they don't keep this system they won't have that automatic berth into the provincials. This is the real reason and they hide behind BS political rhetoric like structure and participation! What does that mean? This is not rocket science, anyone who makes the team participates - pretty simple. Structure - plays some league games. What agenda would the larger schools have? Win? Sure that is the point of the exercise. This is not house league intramurals.
Again I put out the question and even challenge those AD's, coaches, and administrators to rebut my presumption above - which is - This is done solely for selfish reasons of ensuring a team gets in the playoffs and to realign they risk that so they don't. I look forward to replys.
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bballspirit



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PostSubject: Re: Edmonton Boys Playoffs   Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:58 am

Ifyou are so concerned with the top teams going to provincials you would need to restructure the whole province. Every year there are teams from zones who earn a provincial berth and are not anywhere near the top teams in the province, for example north west , north east and central. Most years the 6th place team from Calgary is better than these teams yet they do not get to go. The issue between metro and public is more complex that just getting a team in, the way these two leagues operate is very different and I prefer Metro.
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Bballjunkie



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PostSubject: Re: Edmonton Boys Playoffs   Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:31 am

It is not so much about the teams that qualify out of Edmonton for provincials, because the best teams eventually do get out. Take for example JP who lost last night in the Edmonton Public semis. They can still qualify second out of Edmonton if they win all three of their zone qualifying games next week, while the winner of Metro Edmonton will automatically qualify, but could be as low as the third seed out of Edmonton.

It is more about the competition during the season. If you had the top five teams out of Edmonton Public and the top five teams out of Metro Edmonton, you would have much more competitive games and the bottom teams in each league would have much more competitive games against each other as well. The current structure doesn't make any sense and it is definitely not in the best interests of the kids playing the games.

Back to where this thread started.....in the Edmonton Public semis last night, Scona beat JP by eight and Harry Ainlay beat Ross Shep by 56...ouch.
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TLU



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PostSubject: Re: Edmonton Boys Playoffs   Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:11 pm

Bball junkie understands it. That was my main point. The other was there is no reason for such a current setup except to protect the traditionally weaker Metro league. The rest of the province is irrelevant. Again I state the only reason for the current set up is to protect the Metro League. Bball spirit what are the differences that make you prefer the Metro league? Are they important enough to justify the damage the current set up has on the whole Edmonton league? Lopsided games, no real competition, uneven leagues! If all the teams were on one league you would simply have 4 reps from Edmonton, but this would ensure the best 4 teams would play not allow some weaker team in.
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Edmontonball



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PostSubject: Edmonton Playoffs   Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:15 pm

Metro League:
Final: Saturday March 3rd 7:00pm at Oleary #1 Paul Kane vs. #2 O'leary
3rd place: Monday March 5th 4:45pm at St. FX #3 St. FX vs. #5 Bev Facey

Public League:
Final: Saturday March 3rd 7:00pm at Scona #1 Harry Ainlay vs. #2 Scona
3rd place: Saturday March 3rd 2:00pm at Lillian Osborne #3 Jasper Place vs. #4 Ross Sheppard

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PostSubject: Re: Edmonton Boys Playoffs   Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:34 pm

Predictions for the above noted four games?
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JD



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PostSubject: Re: Edmonton Boys Playoffs   Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:11 am

I'll give some predictions first before I respond to TLC..
I think Paul Kane's depth with overcome Oleary's size. PK has so many interchangeable players and can pressure from start to finish. If they happen to also be shooting the ball well from 3, they are tough to stop. St. FX will beat Bev Facey.
Ainley is tough to bet against - size, depth, can shoot, defend and well coached. Scona would have to play lights out and Ainley have an off-day for an upset to occur.

As for TLC - as a member of Metro and an AD at one of the high schools - here is something to chew on. Not sure how you call PK a weak sister when they have been to the finals 2X, winning once in the last 4 years. Add to that Oleary (who are solid year in and out) and St. FX (who have been ranked in the top 5 numerous occasions in the last couple of years) - there are 3 very good teams that challenge anything Edmonton Public puts out. Period. Throw in ABJ (except this year) and Bev Facey who often has had good teams and Metro easily stacks up.
As for simply having the top teams play in a league or division - who determines which schools? AD's? Coaches? How many teams? What is the criteria to play in top division? Population? Will they allow 3A teams such as mine to enter the top division? Until this year, Edmonton Public has had their AD's determine where their schools compete. In Metro, the coaches of particular teams/schools can opt up into the premier or stay in city division. This has worked well so THIS YEAR Edmonton Public has copied that format (they call it tiers). Now I totally understand the argument of competition, avoid blowout games etc., however I like a system that allows me to place my team where I see fit - so if I have a team that understands they are going to get beat handily, but get better and eventually challenge the top schools, I like that system. This comes from first hand experience. My team (SACHS) was a .500 city conference team - I had girls that wanted to play college. The only way to challenge them and give them a chance ACAC was to play better competition. We opted up to play premier (we are 3A). First 2 years we were 2-10, 3rd year 7-7, 4th year 10-2, until we won Metro Premier in 2009 going undefeated in League play. We are 2x 3A provincial champions and are in the finals of Metro again vs ABJ tomorrow night. Whats my point? Under the Edmonton Public system, we would have never been "allowed" to play Premier or "tier 1" - we hadn't "earned the right".... but its the chicken or egg scenario. How do we get good enough to join the "big boys" without playing the big schools.

There is so much more that deals with rules etc., $$ and structural organization that has nothing to do with "hiding". Those simplistic comments imply your own ignorance. Coaches don't get paid anything - regardless of # of banners they bring back. I think most schools want the best competition for their teams and kids - creating a system to allow choices to schools, coaches etc. is the struggle that Edmonton Public / Metro are dealing with.
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TLU



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PostSubject: Re: Edmonton Boys Playoffs   Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:26 am

Ignorance. That's funny, perhaps an opinion lacking any sort of factual evidence to support the statement.
First, your arguments are the same tired old arguments that again hide behind the real issue. Who decides whose in what division. Many simple ways. Let each school decide, have a seeding round up till Christmas. Raymond has played 4A for years with a small population. It is a non issue. If you want to put your team in a higher division you can. Exactly the point I am making - it makes your players and program stronger so we agree.
As for the difference in the Metro vs. Edmonton public league, I said traditionally, which is true. Over the past 25 years the rankings and results show that, but again this is irrelevant. I never specifically stated which league - I said it allows a weaker league, either league, in any given year, to put a team automatically into the provincials. Your comments validate my point that administrators are playing politics instead of solving the problem, acting like little children, protecting their own best interests, both Edmonton and Metro are equally guilty.

So again, enlighten me. What are the rules, $$, structural organization, that is preventing this from happening, as you state. If Edmonton and Metro wanted this to happen it would. Hey why don't we do this so we avoid all these opinions. Let's publish the minutes from these meetings, show who voted against such motions then allow such AD's to justify why. I bet it would come down again to blah blah blah rhetoric, the oldest exuse in the book "It is complicated" NO IT IS NOT. Do what's best for basketball, the development of the players, and the programs and quit fighting like little children, acting like politicians and find a solution. IT IS NOT HARD.
BY the way, I have also been involved in these meetings and got so fed up with it I no longer participate in high school basketball because of the political selfishness I saw. But again that's just my view as you have yours. Publish the minutes, see who is against it. Let them explain to the community why they take their position instead of hiding behind closed doors.
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bballspirit



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PostSubject: Re: Edmonton Boys Playoffs   Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:59 pm

Congrats to SACHS for their convincing win over ABJ. In the boys final, PK pulls away in the second half for a 26 point win and their second Premier final in a row. Next they play HA for Edmonton number 1(thursday Concordia).
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Edmontonball



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PostSubject: Edmonton 4A Boys Zone Tournament    Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:57 am

Edmonton 4A Boys will have 5 teams attend provincials

Public:

1st- Ainlay
2nd- Scona
3rd- Jasper Place

Metro:
1st: Paul Kane
2nd: Oleary
3rd: St. FX

Edmonton Zone Tournament:
Wednesday March 7th 4:45pm Jasper Place @ Oleary
Wednesday March 7th 6:15pm St. FX @ Scona game to be played @ J Percy Page

Thursday March 8th Harry Ainlay vs. Paul Kane 7:00pm Concordia Gym

Friday March 9th Winner of JP and Oleary vs. Winner of St. FX and Scona 5:00pm @ NAIT
Friday March 9th Loser of JP and Oleary vs. Loser of St. FX and Scona 7:00pm @ NAIT

Saturday March 10th Seeding game to determine 4th and 5th seed 1:00pm @ Concordia
Saturday March 10th Seeding game to determine 2nd and 3rd seed 5:00pm @ Concordia


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bballspirit



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PostSubject: Re: Edmonton Boys Playoffs   Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:43 pm

It appears that Edmonton only received 1 wildcard spot yet edmontonball says 2 wildcards for edmonton boys. What happened?
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Edmontonball



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PostSubject: Re: Edmonton Boys Playoffs   Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:55 am

Bballspirit you are correct. On Tuesday ASAA posted that Edmonton 4A Boys would receive 2 wildcards and then later that afternoon they pulled one back and the south got it. Not sure what happened.

Last night JP beat Oleary easily and Scona beat St. FX in double overtime.

Tonight Ainlay plays PK at 7pm at Concordia.

Friday JP vs. Scona 5pm at NAIT
Friday FX vs. Oleary 7pm at NAIT
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bballspirit



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PostSubject: Re: Edmonton Boys Playoffs   Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:26 pm

So the south will now get 4 teams in with their 2 regular berths, plus a host berth, plus a wildcard, they must really want the Raymond boys in it. This seems ridiculous considering Edmonton has had 6 teams in the top ten or HM in every ranking period and often has 4 teams in the top ten alone. Why would ASAA allow a zone to send almost half of the eligible representatives from that zone to provincials. Did someone forget that the south was also receiving a host spot? Watch, next the Raymond boys will suddenly get to play games in their own gym. Rankers from the Calgary and Edmonton zones better start some sabre rattling now as it seems that the south is running this show. Check the ASAA website on how wildcards are to handed out, there seems to be mention of a certain number of teams being ranked top ten and HM, and in the final ranking the south has 2 top ten and an HM. What gives????
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Southfan



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PostSubject: Re: Edmonton Boys Playoffs   Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:54 pm

bball, pretty simple, south has 3 teams in rankings so qualify for their 2 plus 1 wild card and then they have a host!!!
Last time I checked that added up to 4! No different than when anyone else hosts!
If there should be some sabre rattling it should be about the zones who get automatic births that cant even compete!!!!
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bballspirit



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PostSubject: Re: Edmonton Boys Playoffs   Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:39 pm

Big difference when Edmonton or Calgary host and 5 teams out of 20 make it as opposed to 4 out of 6 making it. I do not think anyone can say that the Comets have earned a spot in provincials and are one of the top 15 teams in Alberta.
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kraull



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PostSubject: Re: Edmonton Boys Playoffs   Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:00 pm

Being from Edmonton, I have to say SOmething seems wrong with the berths from my perspective.
First Ranking - Edmonton has 4 top 10 and 2 HM
Second Ranking - Edmonton again has 4 top 10 and 2 hm
Third Ranking - Edmonton has 5 top 10 and still 2 HM

How in the world can they only give 4 spots to Edmonton?!?

St FX from Edmonton has been ranked in top 10 all season and will probably finish 5th from Edmonton and will not get a berth. Yet the South gets an extra Wild card berth on top of the host spot?

Then they will wonder at the lopsided wins in the first round....

"YAY, we went all the way to Raymond to get clobbered!"
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Southfan



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PostSubject: Re: Edmonton Boys Playoffs   Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:22 pm

It does not matter how many 4A teams are in your zone! (south has 8 by the way) it is how many are good enough!
When Red Deer hosts they still get their one plus a host! Whats the difference?
Many times when Calgary and edmonton has hosted, their 5th place team got whacked the 1st round!!!!!!
Ya, maybe not totally fair (for Edmonton this year) but those are the rules! And are generally fair.
Let me tell you the 4th place team will not be a push over like the north teams who automatically get a spot!
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bballspirit



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PostSubject: Re: Edmonton Boys Playoffs   Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:06 pm

I agree with the no pushover statement, especially given some teams having homecourts or great fan support. Some poor 4/5 seed is going to have to beat Raymond/cch/lci on, for all intents and purposes, a home court, although weren't Cardston and Raymond ranked 1/2 a few years ago when they hosted and neither made the finals so there may be some hope for the rest of us. Yes I stand corrected there are 8 teams ,so only half of them make, as opposed to the 25% who qualify out of Edmonton. Yes I agree it is not always fair but it is difficult to come up with a better system. Needless to say, I am excited about heading to the south to watch what should be a great tournament if Ainlay doesn't walk away with it( and hopefuly the officials blow the whistle and keep it a basketball game not a football game.)
In order to keep the tourny provincially relevant you will always need all areas represented, however, some years zones give up their spot because they know they are going to get pummelled.
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