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 Carleton North Varisty over St.Stephen Varsity

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coachnb6



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PostSubject: Carleton North Varisty over St.Stephen Varsity   Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:44 am

Got an email stating today that Carleton North beat the spartans 73-56 at Carleton North. thats a pretty impressive win for a young team, does anyone know anything about these guys?
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HisAirness



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PostSubject: Re: Carleton North Varisty over St.Stephen Varsity   Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:56 am

coachnb6 wrote:
Got an email stating today that Carleton North beat the spartans 73-56 at Carleton North. thats a pretty impressive win for a young team, does anyone know anything about these guys?
Two points on this first off CN is the real deal they were an impressive force in JV and this group will be a team to reckon with. Two, This game was played in Carlton North the officiating here makes it near impossible to win games unless you are 20 points better. I'm not sure there are many teams 20 points better.They allow the CN kids to bang and bash everyone every where. The down side for those guys is it really doesn't set them up to play in any other location with out being in foul trouble. If this were a neutral site game I'm not sure what the outcome is I think this match up is a +/- 5 point type game.
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Red Auerbach



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PostSubject: Re: Carleton North Varisty over St.Stephen Varsity   Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:49 am

I've played and coached teams that have visited the area many times and tend to agree. If they can't beat you, they will beat you.
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celtic



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PostSubject: Re: Carleton North Varisty over St.Stephen Varsity   Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:41 pm

HisAirness wrote:
coachnb6 wrote:
Got an email stating today that Carleton North beat the spartans 73-56 at Carleton North. thats a pretty impressive win for a young team, does anyone know anything about these guys?
Two points on this first off CN is the real deal they were an impressive force in JV and this group will be a team to reckon with. Two, This game was played in Carlton North the officiating here makes it near impossible to win games unless you are 20 points better. I'm not sure there are many teams 20 points better.They allow the CN kids to bang and bash everyone every where. The down side for those guys is it really doesn't set them up to play in any other location with out being in foul trouble. If this were a neutral site game I'm not sure what the outcome is I think this match up is a +/- 5 point type game.

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense seeing that CN had 5 fouls compared to St. Stephen 0 early in 1 quarter and ST. was in the bonus every quarter and CN not?? Another bunch of winers blaming the refs!!
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HisAirness



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PostSubject: Re: Carleton North Varisty over St.Stephen Varsity   Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:28 pm

celtic wrote:
HisAirness wrote:
coachnb6 wrote:
Got an email stating today that Carleton North beat the spartans 73-56 at Carleton North. thats a pretty impressive win for a young team, does anyone know anything about these guys?
Two points on this first off CN is the real deal they were an impressive force in JV and this group will be a team to reckon with. Two, This game was played in Carlton North the officiating here makes it near impossible to win games unless you are 20 points better. I'm not sure there are many teams 20 points better.They allow the CN kids to bang and bash everyone every where. The down side for those guys is it really doesn't set them up to play in any other location with out being in foul trouble. If this were a neutral site game I'm not sure what the outcome is I think this match up is a +/- 5 point type game.

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense seeing that CN had 5 fouls compared to St. Stephen 0 early in 1 quarter and ST. was in the bonus every quarter and CN not?? Another bunch of winers blaming the refs!!


I will state again that I think the CN team is the real deal a very good club. Coach Dunlop and Blackie have done an amazing job with this group of players. They will be in the mix come Harbour Station time . I will assume with your intimate details of the game you were there. I will also assume that you are a CN fan. So I wounder why I waste the 3 min that it takes to write this as it will clearly be ignored, but I'll give it a shot. The officiating in this part of the province is a problem. It gets addressed at official and coaching meetings alike each year. I know you will view it as people just complaining but there has to be some merit to the fact that you rarely run into anyone aside from the locals that don't have that opinion. There are a few reasons this needs to be fixed. First coaches want to go there less and less (not fair for the CN guys), Second It doesn't make it easy for the CN kids to play in other gyms with out being in foul trouble. They get frustrated and can not understand why the style that they are allowed to play at home is not excepted else where this is not fair for them. Last, we need as a province to have a standard for officials, there is not enough accountability from the NBAABO to ensure that the same game is being called in Moncton,Saint John, Carlton North, Sugarloaf. Officials in regions around the province call a drastically different game and that is a huge problem to the development to the game in this part of the country. I will just say officials in CN are not wrong they just need to understand how the game is being call everywhere else and stop letting the fans dictate the style.
As a side not if you are going to continue to call everyone "winers" you should clarify if you are calling them winners or whiners
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celtic



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PostSubject: Re: Carleton North Varisty over St.Stephen Varsity   Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:19 pm

1st of all...I am definately not a CN fan at all. I am still waiting for an answer on why the foul count was so much different in this game in St. Stephen's favor?....I would guess it as because the refs called more fouls on CN than St. Stephen??...just a guess. Possibly, the officials in Saint John, Moncton, etc also need to realize how the game is being called in other parts of the province? CN, Hartland & Woodstock all have their fair share of titles in the last 20 years so I guess they will probably be ok when they have to travel to the greater metropolitan areas.
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poolie



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PostSubject: Referees calling the game   Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:20 pm

There are a large number of good referees in the province and I commend them. In my opinion they let the kids play the game and determine the outcome. The problem with alot of referees I think is that they feel that they have to be at the center of the game and they are the ones that everyone came to see. In my opinion all referees doing High School games should have to go through a screening and a evaluation on their ability to control a game and call it fairly. After each game the referees should be evaluated by both coaches and a couple of times a year evaluated by referee officials. If there are constant bad evaluations their ranking should be dropped from a A referee to a B referee. Your pay should be determined on you ranking throughout the year. If this were the case I beleive that alot more of the referees around the province would hustle up and down the floor and take pride in their job. If the referees are consistant from the start of the game and use their whistle to let the kids know that is how the game is going to be played everyone can respect that. I know that referees make alot of calls during a game and alot of you may agree with the call and sometimes you dont. I like it when a referee is hustling up and down the floor trying to be in positon to make the right call. If they make a bad call, I wont say a thing. A big problem in NB is the age of the referees. Alot of them are too old to be doing a High School game and are constantly out of position that is where it really frustarates a coach or fan.
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CoachDJR



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PostSubject: Re: Carleton North Varisty over St.Stephen Varsity   Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Lets deal with these in order. CNHS beats SSHS at home in early Dec. In a game that means nothing I'm guessing that is what one if not both coaches were giving away. Both teams have good coaches and if/when then meet in FEbruary I would bet that the game plan you would have seen at that game will not be the gameplan you see on that day. Nice win for CNHS but doesn't mean a whole lot. More (IMO) because of the time of the year and nothing being on the line, rather then the officiating.

The officiating in Carleton COunty is different. To be fair the officiating in Sugarloaf/Dalhousie/Bathurst is different too. The officiating in Moncton, Fredericton, and Saint JOhn are all different as well. Officiating in St. Stephen area is different too. Officiating for NB high schools, CIS, and national level athletes is also very different from other provinces. Complicate this by the fact that we have an aging officials population and that each region has both good and not so good officials, you can end up in a mess no matter where you go if you aren't ready or able.

The issue is really a basketball and player development issue. Coaches can spend hours on footwork, but if the officials don't want to call 40-50 travels a night for game flow then the team who would travel 75% of the time get the extra practice time to shoot/ put in offensive and defensive schemes without penalty. If you play in an an area where hands on and in, or bumping of cutters is common place but then have to play games in an area where the off ball players or ball handler are given the maximum amount of time space and protection suddenly teams cannot defend because they don't have the footwork or sense of spacing to compete without fouling. Also there are an increasing nubmer of games at all levels where time in the weight room is going to contribute to success at a higher rate then your footwork, or timing.

As a province we need more younger officials, that are better trained and capable. That is not a criticism of our current officials because you could substitute any job/profession for "officials" in NB and it would be an accurate statement. More importantly for the sake of developing players all stakeholders: coaches, officials, players, parents etc. Need to work to get on the same page in terms of the sort of game and players we want to make instead of focusing in what our personal feelings or regional/local concerns might be.
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poolie



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PostSubject: Well said   Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:03 pm

Well Said
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celtic



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PostSubject: Re: Carleton North Varisty over St.Stephen Varsity   Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:17 am

CoachDJR wrote:
Lets deal with these in order. CNHS beats SSHS at home in early Dec. In a game that means nothing I'm guessing that is what one if not both coaches were giving away. Both teams have good coaches and if/when then meet in FEbruary I would bet that the game plan you would have seen at that game will not be the gameplan you see on that day. Nice win for CNHS but doesn't mean a whole lot. More (IMO) because of the time of the year and nothing being on the line, rather then the officiating.

The officiating in Carleton COunty is different. To be fair the officiating in Sugarloaf/Dalhousie/Bathurst is different too. The officiating in Moncton, Fredericton, and Saint JOhn are all different as well. Officiating in St. Stephen area is different too. Officiating for NB high schools, CIS, and national level athletes is also very different from other provinces. Complicate this by the fact that we have an aging officials population and that each region has both good and not so good officials, you can end up in a mess no matter where you go if you aren't ready or able.

The issue is really a basketball and player development issue. Coaches can spend hours on footwork, but if the officials don't want to call 40-50 travels a night for game flow then the team who would travel 75% of the time get the extra practice time to shoot/ put in offensive and defensive schemes without penalty. If you play in an an area where hands on and in, or bumping of cutters is common place but then have to play games in an area where the off ball players or ball handler are given the maximum amount of time space and protection suddenly teams cannot defend because they don't have the footwork or sense of spacing to compete without fouling. Also there are an increasing nubmer of games at all levels where time in the weight room is going to contribute to success at a higher rate then your footwork, or timing.

As a province we need more younger officials, that are better trained and capable. That is not a criticism of our current officials because you could substitute any job/profession for "officials" in NB and it would be an accurate statement. More importantly for the sake of developing players all stakeholders: coaches, officials, players, parents etc. Need to work to get on the same page in terms of the sort of game and players we want to make instead of focusing in what our personal feelings or regional/local concerns might be.

I totally agree as well....well said!!
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Stripes



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PostSubject: Re: Carleton North Varisty over St.Stephen Varsity   Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:03 am

It's the annual state of officiating thread.

I will repeat my little anecdote which I believe illustrates how you will never satisfy everyone when it comes to officiating. A few years ago, I had a chat with a well respected high school coach where we discussed officiating in general. One of his comments was that we were calling the game too closely in the Moncton area and in NB in general. He felt that as long as the officials were consistent, he liked a game that was physical without a ton of free throws. A few months later, I chatted with another well respected high school coach and he basically felt that the officials did not call the games closely enough. He felt that basketball had gotten too physical and that brute strength was winning over skills. These two coaches and their teams will meet head to head this year. Chances are that someone will not like the officiating style.

My philosophy now with officiating is to referee for the tape. Over half of the games that I officiate are videotaped, many of which I can watch after the fact. I try to call the game in a way that if anyone watches the tape, it will verify that I made the right call, whether or not it was popular at the time. Of course the video will also show that I miss some of them. More and more coaches are sending copies of games (or plays) to supervisors to illustrate poor calls. My hope is that the video will verify my call.

On the topic of recruiting young officials. It is everyone's responsibility to respect officials. I've approached dozens of people to encourage them to give refereeing a try. The vast majority decline. Many of them say that they couldn't handle all of the criticism that comes with the job. As Coach DJR said, all of the stakeholders need to work together to improve the state of officiating and the state of the game.
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poolie



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PostSubject: Also well said from referee standpoint.   Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:10 pm

This is also well said from a referee standpoint. I realize that there is always calls sometimes in your favour and sometimes against your team. That is perfectly fine. We had a game about two weeks ago and the one referee kept after the kids. Hands off over and over and over. Out of the key over and over. Then the game became very physical. We kept after the referee to use his whistle and get control of the game before someone gets hurt. The only thing that we got in response was a technical foul which I deserved. He came to both benches after half and warned both benches he was going to start calling the fouls. I said it was a little to late for that he should have done that half way though the first quarter.I just wish that the referees would call the holds, the reach ins and the three is the keys. I like a physical game but hands off .
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The Bench



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PostSubject: Re: Carleton North Varisty over St.Stephen Varsity   Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:54 pm

poolie wrote:
There are a large number of good referees in the province and I commend them. In my opinion they let the kids play the game and determine the outcome. The problem with alot of referees I think is that they feel that they have to be at the center of the game and they are the ones that everyone came to see. In my opinion all referees doing High School games should have to go through a screening and a evaluation on their ability to control a game and call it fairly. After each game the referees should be evaluated by both coaches and a couple of times a year evaluated by referee officials. If there are constant bad evaluations their ranking should be dropped from a A referee to a B referee. Your pay should be determined on you ranking throughout the year. If this were the case I beleive that alot more of the referees around the province would hustle up and down the floor and take pride in their job. If the referees are consistant from the start of the game and use their whistle to let the kids know that is how the game is going to be played everyone can respect that. I know that referees make alot of calls during a game and alot of you may agree with the call and sometimes you dont. I like it when a referee is hustling up and down the floor trying to be in positon to make the right call. If they make a bad call, I wont say a thing. A big problem in NB is the age of the referees. Alot of them are too old to be doing a High School game and are constantly out of position that is where it really frustarates a coach or fan.

Really you want coaches evaluating officials in this province. I think you are giving a little too much credit to coaches and their knowledge of the rulebook. I am a former official of 10 years and have had discussions with some coaches that have absolutely no clue what they are tallking about. Now don't get me wrong there are a lot of knowledgeable coaches in this province that do understand the rulebook and for the most part the discussions that these coaches have had with me have been very healthy discussion. However, some coaches just leave you shaking your head at the foolishness they are saying. Either way coaches all prefer a certain style of basketball and will evaluate according to that particular style. How does that gain any consistency from region to region or even within a zone. What if we turned around and had officials evaluate coaches on things such as professionalism on the court or sportsmanship. Lord knows I have seen my fair share of ignorance on those issues. My point is having coaches evaluate referees is a terrible idea.
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poolie



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PostSubject: Rating the referees   Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:15 pm

I am not saying rate them on their knowledge of the rule book but of the way they control the game.
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Stripes



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PostSubject: Re: Carleton North Varisty over St.Stephen Varsity   Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:43 pm

Hoosier Hysteria,

We had our coaches rank the officials in our zone a few years ago in order to help our assigner. The form was anonymous and the coaches were asked to rate the top officials in the zone as well as the weakest. The coaches rankings were practically the same as the rankings of our own association. It's usually not a great mystery who are the top officials in a region.
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The Bench



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PostSubject: Re: Carleton North Varisty over St.Stephen Varsity   Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:17 pm

Stripes I have no problem with that type of a ranking. What I have a problem with is coaches conducting a formal evaluation of referees. They should not have that much authority. What qualifies them to do that. If you took all of the coaches in the province and made tem officiate, who is to say they would be good at it. I know a few coaches who have done it and failed miserably at it.
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The Bench



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PostSubject: Re: Carleton North Varisty over St.Stephen Varsity   Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:24 pm

poolie wrote:
I am not saying rate them on their knowledge of the rule book but of the way they control the game.

Who is to say that their definition of a well controlled game is the right definition. It is opinion based, some coaches like those chaotic games that seem a bit out of control. Some coaches like a game that is over controlled and has tons of whistles. They need a criteria that they are evaluating the officials on. Simply telling them to evaluate how the game is controlled has no consistency what so ever.
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Stripes



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PostSubject: Re: Carleton North Varisty over St.Stephen Varsity   Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:04 pm

Hoosier_Hysteria wrote:
Stripes I have no problem with that type of a ranking. What I have a problem with is coaches conducting a formal evaluation of referees. They should not have that much authority. What qualifies them to do that. If you took all of the coaches in the province and made tem officiate, who is to say they would be good at it. I know a few coaches who have done it and failed miserably at it.

Absolutely I agree. I don't think there are any coaches who would want to sit and do a formal evaluation of officials anyway. And if they did, they would not be qualified to do so. My thinking was that in some jurisdictions, coaches can have some input in the selection of officials for regionals etc.... The input of the coaches usually carries less weight that the input of the supervisors of officials.
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poolie



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PostSubject: Old Boys Club   Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:46 am

The problem in some areas of our province are that their referees are that they are run by much older gentlemen and they give preferential treatment to their buddies who they have refereed with for twenty five years. If they had a independent grading system the best referees would be doing the higher paced and skilled games. The lower ranked referee would be available to do mini, bantam and middle school. Older referees that cant run up and down the floor to follow the play and be in position to make the correct call should not be doing high school games. We had referees this weekend that walked up and down the floor. A shot would be put up and one referee would turn around and start walking down to the other end of the floor with his back to the play. He had no idea what was happening behind him and who might have the ball. To me he shouldnt be doing high school games. The coaches association sent out an email earlier this year that informed the NBIAA of upcoming price increases to do games for the next three years. I am good with that, they have a hard job to do! I would like to see NBIAA to step in and say that we want the best qualified referees for these games. Set guidelines how the game is to be called province wide and all referees stick to it. If they dont they risk being put on NBIAA non compliance list and not eligible to do High School games.
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celtic



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PostSubject: Re: Carleton North Varisty over St.Stephen Varsity   Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:49 am

If nobody has noticed...we have a shortage of refs so maybe the focus should be to recruit new ones...there are only so many to go around!
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Hardfouls



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PostSubject: Re: Carleton North Varisty over St.Stephen Varsity   Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:05 am

Stripes wrote:
Hoosier_Hysteria wrote:
Stripes I have no problem with that type of a ranking. What I have a problem with is coaches conducting a formal evaluation of referees. They should not have that much authority. What qualifies them to do that. If you took all of the coaches in the province and made tem officiate, who is to say they would be good at it. I know a few coaches who have done it and failed miserably at it.

Absolutely I agree. I don't think there are any coaches who would want to sit and do a formal evaluation of officials anyway. And if they did, they would not be qualified to do so. My thinking was that in some jurisdictions, coaches can have some input in the selection of officials for regionals etc.... The input of the coaches usually carries less weight that the input of the supervisors of officials.

I don't think anyone is suggesting coaches do formal evaluations of referees. I think it's being suggested that coaches have a formal process to provide feedback. Customer feedback is not uncommon. Happens in the food service industry all the time and most customers know nothing about running a restaurant. The key is the type of feedback that is solicited then using that feedback to improve.
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poolie



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PostSubject: Exactly!!!!!!   Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:45 am

Thank you Hard Fouls...... That is exacly what I was trying to say. I guess I didnt word it very well. You hit the nail on the head.
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