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 Regional tournament 3 vs 4 game

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BumptheCutter



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PostSubject: Re: Regional tournament 3 vs 4 game   Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:08 am

CoachDJR wrote:
Not to hijack this thread but in all these threads leading up to playoffs "gamemanship" issues seem to come up over and over. Particularly by the fans and followers of "A" basketball.
- How teams play an exhibition game vs league game/playoff game?
- Throwing games to improve/ change positioning?
- Who's gym you have to play in when? What gyms you have to play in?

No just as an observer I don't see a lot of AA/AAA fans/players/coaches coming on this site voicing concerns over these issues. Granted the number of passionate followers we have posting on this site seem to be in much greater numbers on the "A" side of things and that may be a factor.

I'm just wondering (Assuming that is the case), why there seems to be so much more concern over gamesmanship at this level? Is it going on more at this level? Do coaches/players/fans feel like it creates more of an advantage in these situations?

I'm just curious as I'm not sure A) how valid these concerns are (ie. How much advantage you really get, how often teams consider these things, etc) B) Why it would be such a concern at lower levels when it doesn't "appear" to be a huge concern at others?

Exactly Stripes...it was tongue and cheek. This happens at all levels of B-Ball. I was referring to DJR's quote above... ecspecially the last part about lower levels (ClassA) being the only level concerned about this happening. I guess what I'm saying is instead of pointing the finger at class A ball and our gamemanship....he had better take a look at the AAA/AA scenarios as well. The caliber of ball at AAA/AA is much stronger than class A... agreed. Just don't put yourselves up on the high horse and say it does'nt happen in the AAA/AA games. If you choose to beleive it's only a class A problem you can go and shovel what's coming out of the end of the horse your on!
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CoachDJR



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PostSubject: Re: Regional tournament 3 vs 4 game   Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:20 am

BumptheCutter wrote:
CoachDJR wrote:
Not to hijack this thread but in all these threads leading up to playoffs "gamemanship" issues seem to come up over and over. Particularly by the fans and followers of "A" basketball.
- How teams play an exhibition game vs league game/playoff game?
- Throwing games to improve/ change positioning?
- Who's gym you have to play in when? What gyms you have to play in?

No just as an observer I don't see a lot of AA/AAA fans/players/coaches coming on this site voicing concerns over these issues. Granted the number of passionate followers we have posting on this site seem to be in much greater numbers on the "A" side of things and that may be a factor.

I'm just wondering (Assuming that is the case), why there seems to be so much more concern over gamesmanship at this level? Is it going on more at this level? Do coaches/players/fans feel like it creates more of an advantage in these situations?

I'm just curious as I'm not sure A) how valid these concerns are (ie. How much advantage you really get, how often teams consider these things, etc) B) Why it would be such a concern at lower levels when it doesn't "appear" to be a huge concern at others?

Exactly Stripes...it was tongue and cheek. This happens at all levels of B-Ball. I was referring to DJR's quote above... ecspecially the last part about lower levels (ClassA) being the only level concerned about this happening. I guess what I'm saying is instead of pointing the finger at class A ball and our gamemanship....he had better take a look at the AAA/AA scenarios as well. The caliber of ball at AAA/AA is much stronger than class A... agreed. Just don't put yourselves up on the high horse and say it does'nt happen in the AAA/AA games. If you choose to beleive it's only a class A problem you can go and shovel what's coming out of the end of the horse your on!

I got that you were being tongue in cheek.

Never indicated it was only going on in A ball only. I did try to determine why it seemed like such a concern there.

Most of the gamesmanship issues brought forth on this site previously were by A ball supporters, fans, players, games, gyms, etc. Specifically asked questions trying to determine how often it went on at all and why there was apparently a lot of concern of fans at one level but not so much with fans at the other.

Is it that it is not happening as frequently, is it not as apparent/important, or do they just have a fan/coaching base that is less/more upset when it does happen?

Clearly these things go on at all levels from pros to low level sports. All I was pointing out was that the majority of claims and concerns we were seeing were coming from A situations. There are a multitude of reasons for that: ranging from the possibility it is more frequent or a problem, to its not really a major problem at all but because their fan base is more engaged on this site we hear about it more often here. Along with all possibilites in between.

Sorry if I added to any ongoing persecution complexes rural non AAA schools feel in this province. (Couldn't help it!)
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breakercoach



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PostSubject: Re: Regional tournament 3 vs 4 game   Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:03 pm

Some interesting results in some 3/4 games and also a couple of 1/2 games.
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breakercoach



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PostSubject: Re: Regional tournament 3 vs 4 game   Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:34 am

Probably timely to revisit this one.

How about the NBIAA allow the winner of the 3 vs 4 game to choose where they want to go the following weekend? This would have to be decided via email after the 1 vs 2 game has been played. It happened as recently as last season where a team who lost the 3/4 game made it through to Harbour Station and it will put coaches and athletes in an awkward situation again this year.
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CoachDJR



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PostSubject: Re: Regional tournament 3 vs 4 game   Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:03 am

breakercoach wrote:
Probably timely to revisit this one.

How about the NBIAA allow the winner of the 3 vs 4 game to choose where they want to go the following weekend? This would have to be decided via email after the 1 vs 2 game has been played. It happened as recently as last season where a team who lost the 3/4 game made it through to Harbour Station and it will put coaches and athletes in an awkward situation again this year.

I'm not sure how this suggested scenario works?

How would the winners pick if they both wanted to pick the same 1 or there was only 1 regional and 1 interlocked league. So lets use AAA girls as the example NE is interlocked so without some key league games being played lets say it breaks down BMHS, Riverview, MVHS, MHS  ..  . so BMHS hosts. MVHS has earned the right as the 3 seed to stay at home. Whomever wins the 3 vs 4 game in the SW doesn't want to stay in the SW and wants to go NE  . . . what is now the procedure?

Complicate this by the fact that you are playing next weekend regardless and injured/tired kids that you may want to rest because you don't care where you play. Or coaches who want to win but kids who know the deal and don't give effort. Mix in coaches and teams who might acutally be trying to lose   . . . IT just creates complicated and normally not positive visuals.

I think what this all comes down to is what is alluded to in a post on another topic. In a number of the leagues AAA, AA, and A basketball there are a greater depth of competitive teams in the SW who could possibly go on a run to win the entire thing or appear in the final. THere is also often a top seed that everyone would like to avoid until they had to or would like to meet on a neutral floor.  So being the 2-4 seed can create easier game(s) then being the 3.

Without going too off topic I think it is simply an interlocked vs regional problem, that most teams/schools would rather play in tournaments then games so they prefer to play league in their own area vs wanting to play interlocked leagues. A) It gives them more control over who they play and then they play them. B) Reduces travel they don't want to make while increasing travel they are interested in making/willing to make C) Increases schedule freedom. So you end up in non-interlocked leagues basically because you can have a league with 3 people if 2 of the schools/teams of the 3 prefer it. What you get it the following scenarios:

1) THe aforementioned regional 3 vs 4 game. Vs.  League play where anything can happen over the course of the year (travel changes, injuries, improvement) so teams would be much less likely to mess around with league games and just do the best they could everynight. You could still have a league game late in a season where it impacts and someone could make a decision but its not guaranteed to happen.

2) You get very good teams who because of the luck of the draw in a given year might never have to play a meaningful game vs a top level opponent outside of their gym until Harbour Station. If you look at the Hartland Boys, Fundy Boys. Fredericton Girls etc etc. This year while they've gone and played the very best teams they could in any situation. Games for HHS vs Harvey, Fundy vs CNHS or WHS,  FHs vs SJHS, Sussex etc. Do not have any real implication. The reality is in games that matter they get to have home court and not because they are better then these other teams or worse simply because its their conferences year to host. VS You play the top comeptition in your region in an agreed upon format (generally home and home) best team over the course of the year gets to host. 2nd and 4th best teams get put in another section. 3rd gets to stay home conference too. (i'm imagining a scenario now where in the case of the AA boys instead of CNHS and Woodstock -without being disrespecful to SVHS - having 2 league games that matter to them, having to play FUndy twice, having to win on the road in St. Stephen and Rothesay they get 4-6 games that matter)

3) You get a premium put on playing as many tournaments and and top teams vs a premium being put on league play and preparing to play more league games with consequence. Travelling to play someone in a tournament is very different then travelling to play a couple of tough league games on a weekend. It just changes the focus of the high school regular season in some conferences to much less meaningful. It also creates imbalances where if you've got a game cap (which isn't really a game cap because if you go to tournaments and are successful you can get 5 games but only count it as 3) when you come from a league that has 3-4 teams you play 4-6 league games. Which means you get 26-28 hand picked games. If you divide that up between tournaments you could be be getting an extra 6-10 quality games too. If you play in a conference or interlocked schedule that has 6-8 teams you get 12-16 league games which gives you 20-16 hand picked games minus the extras you get now by going to less tournaments.

PS. I should point out that while it seems I'm in favour of interlocked leagues, it would only be to eliminate that scenarios above. The reality is that interlocked leagues for A and AA schools are a logistical nightmare because of the current travel restrictions and culture. Basically all interlocked games would have to be on weekends in a home and home scenario, in some cases requiring multuple weekends of travel to be co-ordinated between multiple schools. It also means in event of a cancellation in one region on a weekend it could take away a 5th or 6th weekend of ehibition competition for teams just to get league games in.


Last edited by CoachDJR on Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:14 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Clarification and Math Problems.)
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observer



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PostSubject: Re: Regional tournament 3 vs 4 game   Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:46 am

I am in favour of making the 3/4 game in regionals an elimination game. Give the #1 seed a bye to the sectional. The winner of the 3/4 game crosses over to play the #2 seed on the other side. This would make every game in regionals have much more meaning.
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BeeBall4Lifee



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PostSubject: Re: Regional tournament 3 vs 4 game   Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:39 am

observer wrote:
I am in favour of making the 3/4 game in regionals an elimination game.  Give the #1 seed a bye to the sectional.  The winner of the 3/4 game crosses over to play the #2 seed on the other side.  This would make every game in regionals have much more meaning.

I kind of like this idea also........it also steps up the importance of that 1-2 game as whoever wins that also receives a bye...my only issue is that in some years some #4s in the SW or NE could be a better team than the #1's in the opposite regional but 90% of the time you will still end up with the the right teams playing for a chance at a championship.

Does anyone know if NBIAA has ever looked at modifying the schedules? Maybe they should try it for a couple of years?
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breakercoach



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PostSubject: Re: Regional tournament 3 vs 4 game   Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:16 pm

Coach djr- in your proposal with AAA girls I think the winner of the 3/4 game in the SW can decide if they want to go to the NE BUT if they do go they go in as the #4 seed. So it is there choice, they can stay and go as the #3 or cross over and go as the #4. Make sense?

I am a firm believer in playing interlocking schedules even if there are not enough teams. Inter lock them and do the seeding that way even if you have to take more teams from one conference to come up with your top 4.
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CoachDJR



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PostSubject: Re: Regional tournament 3 vs 4 game   Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:19 pm

breakercoach wrote:
Coach djr- in your proposal with AAA girls I think the winner of the 3/4 game in the SW can decide if they want to go to the NE BUT if they do go they go in as the #4 seed. So it is there choice, they can stay and go as the #3 or cross over and go as the #4. Make sense?

I am a firm believer in playing interlocking schedules even if there are not enough teams. Inter lock them and do the seeding that way even if you have to take more teams from one conference to come up with your top 4.

What happens to the 4's? One gets forced out? Both move to same side? Who becomes the 3?
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breakercoach



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PostSubject: Re: Regional tournament 3 vs 4 game   Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:29 pm

Got ya. Doesn't work bringing a #4 across as a #3. Probably not a perfect answer to this but interlocking may be better although tough for rural areas to do this.
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Sou_by_Souwest



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PostSubject: Re: Regional tournament 3 vs 4 game   Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:42 pm

Something needs to change. AAA girls this year is a perfect example. You are going to have either Saint John High or Leo Hayes sitting on the sideline the first Friday afternoon and Moncton High gets to get to second weekend (sectionals) because of lack of teams in the Northeast. Both Saint John High or Leo Hayes would blow Moncton out of the gym this year. If there is no regional for an area due to lack of teams, have the losers of the first round in the other regional play off to seed 1 and 2 for the losers and make the 3 and 4 seed out of the region with no regionals play a mid week play off game to see who gets to go to sectionals. When you get to sectionals every game should be legitimate and a test of the team trying to get to Harbour Stations.

Soccer does this for World Cup. Fourth place team out of one region plays fourth place team out of another region to make sure the stronger team gets a chance at the big dance.
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CoachDJR



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PostSubject: Re: Regional tournament 3 vs 4 game   Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:46 pm

breakercoach wrote:
Got ya. Doesn't work bringing a #4 across as a #3. Probably not a perfect answer to this but interlocking may be better although tough for rural areas to do this.

Lots of options:

1) Interlocking - but with logistical problems.

2) 3/4 Elimination game - As some have suggestd have the only the 3 seed continue. Cuts down on number of teams advancing and gives huge advantage to 1 seed but maintains current format with simple change.

3) Rankings - Get the NBIAA to establish a committee in charge of ranking. We outscource Allstar balloting to coaches and conference presidnets all ready. Have these coaches rank the final 8 or simply rank teams/pool teams all year long. At playoff time play where you've been ranked if you have been?

4) Final 24/48- Make everything up to the regional final/semi's elimination. Get rid of sectionals and just have a playdowns over the course of a weekend or two weekends at the major host site (harbour station, Currire Centre/AUC, Collesium etc)

5) De-centralize finals #retrofinals - Have each conference/region establish their top 4/3 over whatever you like. THen send all 6-8 teams to a host site (preferably neutral) and have them play down to a champion over the course of the weekend. THrow back to the way it was prior to AUC and Harbour.

6+ . . . So many choices. Just need voices/bodies at association meetings, and AD's & Principals at NBIAA meetings/agm bringing up concerns and solutions.
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C-N '06-'09



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PostSubject: Re: Regional tournament 3 vs 4 game   Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:29 pm

I love the idea of ranking 1-8, 12, 16, whatever. I think you can make by doing it this way you can get universities involved as hosts and have all games played on neutral sites, not to mention the cool experience it would be for the athletes, but if the NBIAA were to do this, they would be favouring basketball for one and secondly, they would just be creating more work for themselves instead of the system that is in place which ranks itself.

If everyone hates the 3/4 game so much why doesn't it just get cut completely? The first two games of regionals are single elimination followed by the 1/2 game. 1SW plays 2NE and 1NE plays 2SW. Semis can be played on a neutral site, rotate between SW and NE or have the 1 seeds host their own game. I, personally, am willing to deal with the 3/4 game as is even though it isn't ideal simply because having 8 teams at sectionals gives the experience to more athletes than 4 does. It gives 4 more teams a higher goal to strive for, especially in programs that will never make it to a provincial final.

Don't like only 2 teams from an interlocking league making play-offs? Fair. Use league play to rank the top 4 teams for a regional (1 vs 4, 2 vs 3 with winners playing in a 1/2 game).

Just my thoughts, but again, I'm pretty sure nothing is going to change with basketball play-offs in the near future. There is still ample opportunity for the top 2 teams to make it to the big stage if they're winning at the right time of year.
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Captain



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PostSubject: Re: Regional tournament 3 vs 4 game   Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:33 pm

"3) Rankings - Get the NBIAA to establish a committee in charge of ranking. We outscource Allstar balloting to coaches and conference presidnets all ready. Have these coaches rank the final 8 or simply rank teams/pool teams all year long. At playoff time play where you've been ranked if you have been? "

Can you elaborate how the all-star choices work and the involvment of the conference presidents? I would thought simple voting, but seems that is not the case.I have seen some strange choices, and it also does not seeem to make sense to do by Conference, a lot of inequity in # of teams, etc.
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brady12



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PostSubject: Re: Regional tournament 3 vs 4 game   Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:47 pm

Somewhere in all of this I read about Nbiaa making more work for itself and that is not likely to happen. My understanding as I have stated before is that they are stretched doing what they currently do. Unfortunately a lot of ADs and most principals pay little attention to their teams unless there is an issue. In a better place, not necessarily perfect the Dept, Principals and all ADs would place a higher value on all Nbiaa sports and invest accordingly. Don't hold your breath. What we have today is likely as good as we can expect and it's not all bad. Once program review is completed there maybe even less resources than what is currently dedicated to hs sport, ugh!
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CoachDJR



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PostSubject: Re: Regional tournament 3 vs 4 game   Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:10 pm

Captain wrote:
"3) Rankings - Get the NBIAA to establish a committee in charge of ranking. We outscource Allstar balloting to coaches and conference presidnets all ready. Have these coaches rank the final 8 or simply rank teams/pool teams all year long. At playoff time play where you've been ranked if you have been? "

Can you elaborate how the all-star choices work and the involvment of the conference presidents? I would thought simple voting, but seems that is not the case.I have seen some strange choices, and it also does not seeem to make sense to do by Conference, a lot of inequity in # of teams, etc.

As I understand it:

Step 1: Coaches in each conference SW/NE - submit names of players they would like to see nominated. There own, others, anyone in their league.


Step 2: Conference presidents create a master list.

Step 3: Submit form with all names of players in your league back to coaches. Coaches vote in 5 selections. Their first pick gets more points then their 5th pick. Must be returned by the end of regional weekend.

Step 4. Conference presidents tabulate points. Do any math needed? ie factoring number of schools in south vs west to weight votes to balance out for teams/players people haven't seen/ splitting ties. Most points wins. Top 5 points getters make up the all star cohort for that conferences and league.
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Coach34



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PostSubject: Re: Regional tournament 3 vs 4 game   Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:53 am

[/quote]

As I understand it:

Step 1: Coaches in each conference SW/NE - submit names of players they would like to see nominated. There own, others, anyone in their league.


Step 2: Conference presidents create a master list.

Step 3: Submit form with all names of players in your league back to coaches. Coaches vote in 5 selections. Their first pick gets more points then their 5th pick. Must be returned by the end of regional weekend.

Step 4. Conference presidents tabulate points. Do any math needed? ie factoring number of schools in south vs west to weight votes to balance out for teams/players people haven't seen/ splitting ties.  Most points wins. Top 5 points getters make up the all star cohort for that conferences and league.[/quote]


If I understand right, couple of things wrong with this system
1) Conference presidents should not have any latitude to change or decide picks.This should be a committee at least, or go by the votes.
) Inequities in team count in conferences needs to be accounted for (if they are not already). ie, look at A girls, 10 teams in South West share 5 spots, and only 5 teams in North East share 5 spots. Does not make sense, and almost guarentees weaker plays from  North East will take a spot from a player that actaully deserves to be there.
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brady12



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PostSubject: Re: Regional tournament 3 vs 4 game   Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:07 pm

The process of selecting players to participate is so seriously flawed and even the notion that there is a "need" for an all star game ,ridiculous. No resources or energy should be invested in trying to make this a legitimate event. No offence meant to the current sponsors or folks in Sussex who host, it's just a waste of time.
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CoachDJR



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PostSubject: Tennesse girls teams both suspended from playoffs for tanking to avoid 1 seed.   Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:36 pm

http://espn.go.com/espnw/news-commentary/article/12371147/2-prep-girls-teams-caught-tanking-banned-postseason
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