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 St.George's vs Vancouver College

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MagicMan



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PostSubject: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:25 pm

One of the most exciting games I have seen in high school ball of late. Just when you think it is over, VC makes made dash but comes up just a little short. St. George's 78 VC 77 It's too bad Gogy did not get to shoot that 3 before the foul by St. George's near the end of the game because he NAILED it. Great game ! Great crowd !
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Pooch



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PostSubject: LM draw   Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:14 am

It will be interesting to see the draw for the LM tournament.
Logic would see Saints as the number one seed. A hot run since Christmas and ranked highest in the provincial rankings amongst Lower Mainland teams. Victories over number two and five ranked teams in the past two weeks.
Kitsilano would be solidly in as number two.
League winners have to be the top four seeds, so Churchill would be the most likely 5 seed. Easily the best of the rest and probably better than some of the league winners.
That would mean a Churchill/Kits semi-final. Fun stuff.
Let's hope politics don't get involved, but remember this is the Lower Mainlands.
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lukester0506



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:56 am

It was a crazy game to watch!
Im excited to make more videos for that game!
Anyone know when the Seedings will be finalized and the schedules will be posted?
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JesusShuttlesworth



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:53 am

MagicMan wrote:
One of the most exciting games I have seen in high school ball of late. Just when you think it is over, VC makes made dash but comes up just a little short. St. George's 78 VC 77 It's too bad Gogy did not get to shoot that 3 before the foul by St. George's near the end of the game because he NAILED it. Great game ! Great crowd !

Wow! Just caught the archive of this game on SportsCanada.tv, unbelievable last minute comeback VC almost had, I personally didn't think EJ from VC was fouled at the end, and Gogy's three that didn't count shouldv'e been the game-winner.
If you haven't seen it check it out:
http://www.sportscanada.tv/index.php/basketball/hs-bb/bc-hs-bb/2012-13-baden-boys-game-of-the-week/1160
Last minute was crazy (1:25 mark on the archive) Georges was up 7 with 30 sec. to play and VC ended up losing by one with a chance to win it in the end.
Unbelievable game, great back-forth between the two teams.
Hands Down the best basketball rivalry in BC.
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Sim



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:27 pm

It's a shame that both these teams won't be in the Mainland's. Kudos to the Valley for setting aside the dumb politics and being an inclusive organization.
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MagicMan



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:40 pm

Agree 100 per cent with Sim. This came up as a topic of conversation at an event last night with a lot of non-basketball people attending. WOW, it created a lot of strong sentiment saying it was unfair to the kids at these schools (private schools). Almost a form of reverse discrimination. Both teams should have a chance to be at the Provincials. Always better when St. George's and VC are there !!
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Mark Scott



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PostSubject: Seeding   Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:32 pm



I see the draw is out for the Lower Mainland tourney. BC #6 Kitsilano gets the number one seed over BC #5 St George's. Does anyone know how that happens? I'm not sure if it makes much difference in the end since there are five spots available for the provincials, but seems odd all the same. I assume it was a vote among the lower mainland schools. I am not giving an opinion about which team is better, just trying to understand the method of ranking teams.
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ebe



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:30 am

Mark I have started another thread for all of the Lower Mainland playoffs
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Pooch



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:39 am

I believe the seeding is done by the zone reps alone, not all the coaches. Not 100% sure, but I think that is the case.
I think Kits has the most talent but their recent record would not have seen objective people giving them the top seed. It appears from their win over Churchill that they may be back on track but Saints should still have been the number one seed.
Always remember that we are talking about a very disfunctional zone where logic and fairness are rarely the case.
Remember last year when their executive said no reasonable argument could be made that both VC and Saints would even be in the top five of the LM zone? They were both top five in BC and the next highest LM team was number 8 in BC. No reasonable argument could be made???? Not by dishonest types I guess.
Would Saints have hosted the semi's and finals had they been the top seed?
Kits has both, but that may have been the case before the draw was made...I don't know.
Saints are the only top seed with a really tough first game, but Kits has Churchill on their side and that could be a tough semi final for them, too.
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ebe



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:30 am

Pooch wrote:
I believe the seeding is done by the zone reps alone, not all the coaches. Not 100% sure, but I think that is the case.
I think Kits has the most talent but their recent record would not have seen objective people giving them the top seed. It appears from their win over Churchill that they may be back on track but Saints should still have been the number one seed.
Always remember that we are talking about a very disfunctional zone where logic and fairness are rarely the case.
Remember last year when their executive said no reasonable argument could be made that both VC and Saints would even be in the top five of the LM zone? They were both top five in BC and the next highest LM team was number 8 in BC. No reasonable argument could be made???? Not by dishonest types I guess.
Would Saints have hosted the semi's and finals had they been the top seed?
Kits has both, but that may have been the case before the draw was made...I don't know.
Saints are the only top seed with a really tough first game, but Kits has Churchill on their side and that could be a tough semi final for them, too.
Pooch much of the info above is not accurate and I will respond on the LM playoff thread.
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CoachStone21



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:36 am

Pooch wrote:
I believe the seeding is done by the zone reps alone, not all the coaches. Not 100% sure, but I think that is the case.
I think Kits has the most talent but their recent record would not have seen objective people giving them the top seed. It appears from their win over Churchill that they may be back on track but Saints should still have been the number one seed.
Always remember that we are talking about a very disfunctional zone where logic and fairness are rarely the case.
Remember last year when their executive said no reasonable argument could be made that both VC and Saints would even be in the top five of the LM zone? They were both top five in BC and the next highest LM team was number 8 in BC. No reasonable argument could be made???? Not by dishonest types I guess.
Would Saints have hosted the semi's and finals had they been the top seed?
Kits has both, but that may have been the case before the draw was made...I don't know.
Saints are the only top seed with a really tough first game, but Kits has Churchill on their side and that could be a tough semi final for them, too.

Pooch explain this to me..... So every other zone has playoffs to decide what teams move on right? Not every team makes it from Richmond, Burnaby, Vancouver right? So why should 100% of the independent teams make the lower mainlands?
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Sim



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:05 am

CoachStone21, Richmond used to have all 3 teams(Richmond, Steveston & McNair) qualify for the LM's at BCIT. I had no problem with 100% of the Richmond teams qualify back then because all 3 Richmond schools deserved to be there. Why aren't we doing the right thing today??



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CoachStone21



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:16 am

Well richmond went to 8-12 for all high schools in 97. So its been like that for more then a decade now.

Ok so my big problem with this whole thing is that the last time i checked the Provincials are not the best 20 teams in the tourney as it is an invite tourney by zone playoffs. So why should two teams have special rights where teams that win when it counts be punished.

Look i coach at a AAA school and im not crying and calling for some way to get us in cause we didnt win when we had to.
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Pooch



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:07 am

Sorry...I missed where I said that VC should also be in the tournament this year.
I'm tired of that battle.
I did mention the ridiculous argument put forward last year where the LM executive said that no "reasonable argument" could be made that Saints and VC would be in the top five in the LM. That came from adults. Just highlighting the disfunctional nature of this zone.
You are right that in normal circumstances having a two team league makes it difficult to justify a second berth. We all know, however that these two teams are forced into a two team league not by choice. They play by the same rules and there have been no accusations of any wrongdoing yet they can't get in. We can play the game that it is a regional tournament but not one person doesn't believe the BC tournament isn't about finding out who is the best team in the province come March. Tradition does keep us making allowances for teams from around the province but in the end it is to see who is best. Playing in the BC tournament is the dream of every kid playing and if their team works hard enough to be good enough it deserves at least a chance at some sort of playoff to get in.
Coach Stone, you said every team has a chance in playoffs. Not these two. No playoff for VC this year.
There is not a doubt that VC is one of the top teams in the Lower Mainland and those kids played their hearts out only to see their season end while teams they would absolutely crush are moving on. I feel very sorry for them and I do think it is wrong.
The fairest thing would see any zone or league with only one berth but with two teams in the top ten provincial rankings have a shot at a second berth. It's about kids who have worked hard, not politics. Ooops...dumb statement. Of course it's about politics. Amateur sport too often is. Sad.


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coachb



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:43 pm

The discussion around VC and St George's and the side bar about regional representation does bring up and interesting issue and one I suspect that will need to be resolved unless it has been already.
Currently certain regions send a team even if there is only one team from the region to the Provicials. There has been discussion in the past of play in games and I believe (someone can correct me if I am wrong) a couple years back the North Shore was allowed to challenge Fraser Valley in a play in game for a berth?
Moving forward with the 4 tiers now what happens if say for example Kootenay does not have a AAAA team where does that berth go? Does it become a wild card that involves a play in game? This might be a solution for the Vancouver Independent league?
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vancouverbasketball



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:51 pm

You are correct. An appeal was made when the regular season started in the north shore by both teams. Both teams is i remember ended up being ranked 1 and 3 in the province by the province. unlike last year, they didnt wait until the game had been played to make an appeal and threaten with a lawsuit. That was back when Kelly Olynk and Robert Sacre were playing
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vcbasket



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:19 pm

@CoachStone,

Let me first introduce myself as my user name might be misleading. My name is Vladimir Lazic, my son goes to
VC and is on their varsity basketball team. I speak for myself only.


I am not sure why is it that independent schools get to play in the same league with public schools in all “zones” in
BC except for Lower Mainland. As a consequence we have a situation where St.Georges/VC are given the “choice” that no other school in the Province is given: “Lose to VC/St.George’s and you are out of the competition”. I thought we learned something from the last year, when great St.George’s team was barely (and at the last moment) allowed to continue competition in the LM zone after a narrow loss to equally great VC team. St.Georges did not ask for anything free, they just asked to be given a fair chance to compete against the rest of LM teams who qualified for the tournament. In the end, they won the LM zone and proved their point. To me that was a great victory for basketball.

This year, we will have (in the LM zone) teams that lost by 60 against the teams who qualified for the LM tournament,
while VC team is out of competition, without being given a fair chance to compete and measure up against other
teams in the LM zone. So, what are we trying to achieve and whose basketball program we are trying to improve by unfairly eliminating VC!?

VC is always close to the top because of their hard work and dedication. VC lives for basketball , their gym is packed for every basketball game. It is that atmosphere that you rarely see in other schools that brought my son to VC and we have no regrets.

I am coming from a country (Serbia) that is a basketball superpower and I used to play basketball. Many of my former basketball friends who live all over the world got to see VC-St.Georges series on sportscanada.tv. There was not a single person who was not impressed. Well, good enough for the rest of the world, not good enough for LM zone.

Vladimir
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CoachStone21



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:12 pm

vcbasket wrote:
@CoachStone,

Let me first introduce myself as my user name might be misleading. My name is Vladimir Lazic, my son goes to
VC and is on their varsity basketball team. I speak for myself only.


I am not sure why is it that independent schools get to play in the same league with public schools in all “zones” in
BC except for Lower Mainland. As a consequence we have a situation where St.Georges/VC are given the “choice” that no other school in the Province is given: “Lose to VC/St.George’s and you are out of the competition”. I thought we learned something from the last year, when great St.George’s team was barely (and at the last moment) allowed to continue competition in the LM zone after a narrow loss to equally great VC team. St.Georges did not ask for anything free, they just asked to be given a fair chance to compete against the rest of LM teams who qualified for the tournament. In the end, they won the LM zone and proved their point. To me that was a great victory for basketball.

This year, we will have (in the LM zone) teams that lost by 60 against the teams who qualified for the LM tournament,
while VC team is out of competition, without being given a fair chance to compete and measure up against other
teams in the LM zone. So, what are we trying to achieve and whose basketball program we are trying to improve by unfairly eliminating VC!?

VC is always close to the top because of their hard work and dedication. VC lives for basketball , their gym is packed for every basketball game. It is that atmosphere that you rarely see in other schools that brought my son to VC and we have no regrets.

I am coming from a country (Serbia) that is a basketball superpower and I used to play basketball. Many of my former basketball friends who live all over the world got to see VC-St.Georges series on sportscanada.tv. There was not a single person who was not impressed. Well, good enough for the rest of the world, not good enough for LM zone.

Vladimir

Ok first off St Georges bullied their way in the LM's and my school lost a chance to host a LM game as we were richmond 1 which would have ment a big thing to the school and the first in school history.

Now i didnt mean to start this battle again and wasnt my attention and i do feel bad for the kids not the coaches or adults THE KIDS. But what i think what is lost in this whole thing is a lesson. U need to win to get in and makes the kids work hard or get left behind and shows them in life u need to work at what u want or your going to be left behind.

The league thing is a mess I will agree to that.
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lukester0506



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PostSubject: Vancouver College vs Saint George's Mixtape - Game 3 @ St.Johns    Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:17 pm

Here is a mixtape I made of The Vancouver College Fighing Irish vs Saint George's Saints - Series Game 3 from a Saints Perspective.
Already at 700 views and hasnt been a day! Hope you Saints fans and highschool basketball fans like it! Enjoy! Very Happy

Make sure to comment here or the video so I can get feed back from more people! and ill know what to do next time! Thanks!

Dont Forget to check out Game 1 and 2 as well as other videos!

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Woodenpaidhisplayers2



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:53 pm

vcbasket wrote:
@CoachStone,

Let me first introduce myself as my user name might be misleading. My name is Vladimir Lazic, my son goes to
VC and is on their varsity basketball team. I speak for myself only.


I am not sure why is it that independent schools get to play in the same league with public schools in all “zones” in
BC except for Lower Mainland. As a consequence we have a situation where St.Georges/VC are given the “choice” that no other school in the Province is given: “Lose to VC/St.George’s and you are out of the competition”. I thought we learned something from the last year, when great St.George’s team was barely (and at the last moment) allowed to continue competition in the LM zone after a narrow loss to equally great VC team. St.Georges did not ask for anything free, they just asked to be given a fair chance to compete against the rest of LM teams who qualified for the tournament. In the end, they won the LM zone and proved their point. To me that was a great victory for basketball.

This year, we will have (in the LM zone) teams that lost by 60 against the teams who qualified for the LM tournament,
while VC team is out of competition, without being given a fair chance to compete and measure up against other
teams in the LM zone. So, what are we trying to achieve and whose basketball program we are trying to improve by unfairly eliminating VC!?

VC is always close to the top because of their hard work and dedication. VC lives for basketball , their gym is packed for every basketball game. It is that atmosphere that you rarely see in other schools that brought my son to VC and we have no regrets.

I am coming from a country (Serbia) that is a basketball superpower and I used to play basketball. Many of my former basketball friends who live all over the world got to see VC-St.Georges series on sportscanada.tv. There was not a single person who was not impressed. Well, good enough for the rest of the world, not good enough for LM zone.

Vladimir



...So it sounds like you should have stayed at your neighborhood school instead of shopping your kid around. By the way thanks for the honesty- letting us know that you went there for basketball, and the gym is packed to watch your son, yadayada. You kind of reinforce a major point about the wide open catchment areas that Saints and VC enjoy that don't exist for public schools.
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vcbasket



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:29 pm

@Woodenpaidhisplayers2,

Is that your real name?
Please let's try to keep this forum civilized. You see things that I never wrote in my post.
I never "shopped my kid around", he was never a star player for VC, he was
not invited, recruited or given any kind of scholarship by VC (that is easy to verify!),
neither we mentioned basketball (in our transfer application) as a reason for transfer
to VC. He is a straight A student and I believe that is the reason he was accepted
to VC. I never wrote that packed gym came to cheer for my son - just wrote that
VC lives for basketball and puts lots of effort in that program. I am sorry if you have a
problem with that.

As for the catchment area story, I am not aware that is official reason for treating
St.Georges and VC the way they are treated. If it is, it should be made public.
Because, many LM schools with strong basketball programs have kids in their bball
program that live outside their catchment areas (Churchil, Kits, for sure). I see
nothing wrong with that - I am sure nobody tried to recruit them - just like my son
they went there because (among other things) they wanted to play basketball
at higher level than in their catchment areas. So, let's treat all schools equally - even independent ones.
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Pooch



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:59 pm

Thank you to Mr. Lazic for putting a very human and real side to this sad story.
His son's team was never given the opportunity that coach Stone's was to participate in a playoff.
St. George's WON the Lower Mainlands last year? I didn't remember that, but coach Stone doesn't think they should even have been in there. Wow. They "bullied" their way in...right. The only people who thought they shouldn't be in were the LM zone with their obvious biases. Saints, to my knowledge, never took legal action...they just appealed to a level where saner minds prevailed...where LM coaches weren't making the decision. And they won the appeal, as any adult without a huge bias would have agreed to.
Mr. Lazic is also exactly right in pointing out that every good basketball program has kids from everywhere.
Kits, Churchill, etc are loaded with kids from outside their official boundaries and good on them. Those kids have a right to pursue their dream.
The private schools play by exactly the same eligibility rules as do the publics and there is no claim they are doing anything wrong except by anonymous people who love conspiracy theory.
Wouldn't it be lovely if every school's coach cared equally? Knew just as much about the game. Had just as much time to put in, etc. The fact is they don't and never will have and people who care will seek out the best experience possible. Good for them.
Gosh I am tired of all this.
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DickVitale2013



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:10 am

Vladimir,

I know your son personally and he's an upstanding individual who has a tremendous passion for basketball as you do. Had he played for other schools he would have been a center piece. Most important, he's a top student and when basketball is over he'll have a great opportunity to become very successful professionally. I understand that he wanted to have a great experience and chose St. Georges. Let's all be honest over the past few decades just look at many of the winners and many of their players weren't from the catchment area. We all know what schools have this track record.

Here are a list of issues that NEED to be rectified to advance the high school game:

1) St. Georges/VC need to become a body of LM league play and then compete for a play-off spots. The very fact they don't play in a league like all other schools is ridiculous. This issue should have been rectified last year with the threatened lawsuit shenanigans.

2) Basketball BC and Club Basketball Teams work out your individual agendas so that the best players in BC can represent their Province at the Nationals but also play with their Club teams. As a purist this is beyond shameful that the premier players won't be representing BC, because of the childish antics amongst the Club teams and BBC. Get to the table and work this out. The 2014 class is stronger then the 2013 class and they won't be at Canada games. Come on. There's a history of great players that represented BBC at nationals and this has to continue. BBC don't hol the kids hostage they'll chose Club. Simple - it's called loyalty and relationships.

3) Development at the grassroot level throughout the whole LM and Province. Too many week areas and not enough high level programs. We wouldn't have to worry about players moving to better programs as the majority of HS would be competitive. Kids want to get better but they need the venue, program and coaches. BC is losing ground with eastern Canada at a geometric wait.

Good luck to all!
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vancouverbasketball



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:51 am

Its very easy to say things without knowing facts. If you have any actual involvement with basketball, you know why LM schools dont like the private schools. I hate to go back to this subject, but recruitment plays a huge role. Tylon and Drew for saints. Besides Declan, easily there two biggest pieces. Tylon went to Point Grey until Saints got him in. Drew should be at kelowna until when the star of the school year happened, he didnt show up because he was at Saints. These are facts. Now saying all this, I don't have a huge issue with this. Kids want the best possible education and the best opportunity to develop and win. With VC, the got Bicky from John Oliver to come after he played for their regional team. This is one of the reasons why LM schools don't like Private Schools. They can offer money and in a sense, seduce them to their schools. Im sure Point Grey could of came top 6 in the Vancouver playoffs to make it to LM's if they had Tylon but instead, didn't even qualify.

Now, last year Saints threatened with a law suit to get into the LM tournament. They may of won the tournament and good for them, they played a great game and deserved to beat kits in the finals but they only got in because of money and alumni who are some very powerful people

Lastly, when you say that Kits and Churchill load up with players from out of their catchment is a very big lie. I know on a personal level kids from both these schools. You couldn't name any player from out of a catchment area of these schools. I will not say names but only one player on kits hasn't been there since grade 8 and lives outside of the district. He wasn't recruited he simply moved while he was attending kits and didn't want to change schools. With Churchill, only 2 students on the senior team haven't been there since grade 8. One changed due to personal reasons and the other for educational purposes.

I bet you couldn't even name all 3 players. Its good to know your facts before you go on a website and act like you know everything and post your opinion.
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vcbasket



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:57 am

@Pooch and @DickVitale2013,

Thank you both for the kind words! Yes, last year St.George's actually won the
LM regionals in that memorable game vs. Kits and the story about it went around the
world because both teams celebrated at the end of the game.

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/eh-game/team-demands-inclusion-sues-way-higher-seed-then-003349108.html

Great basketball story!

@CoachStone21
I do not see the last year's St. George's action as a bullying, but I guess both of us are
entitled to have different opinions/perceptions. As for the lost opportunity for your
team to host a LM regionals game, that is unfortunate. I hope St. George's did not
impose that on anybody. Bottom line, I am sure you have way more information
about that event than me, so there is no point me arguing about that.

And last but not least, the message to our kids as you see it. I guess that message
only applies to St.George's/VC. Message to the other teams from Vancouver would be
"you can lose a few games, but you still have a chance". I do not want to take
away anything from the 5 Vancouver teams that qualified for the LM regionals
(I am sure they all worked hard and absolutely deserve to be where they are now),
but I am sure that double standards will never improve the game of basketball in
Vancouver high schools. If anything, it will send a wrong message to our kids.
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