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 St.George's vs Vancouver College

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Pooch



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:05 am

No one said that Churchill or Kits recruit.
Only that lots of their players are from outside their actual school boundaries whenever they arrived, just like some of the kids at Saints or VC. They did arrive early enough to be eligible and good for them.
Vancouver schools catchment area is now the whole city. The district encourages kids to choose, as they should.
I have no claim that those schools recruit. Neither do you about Saints or VC. Is it ever possible in your mind that a kid or family would choose to go to Saints or VC without it being recruiting? It certainly seems possible in your mind for the public schools. Kits and Churchill have very good programs that attract. So do Saints and VC. Treat them equally unless you know something different. In which case, put your name in front of any allegation you might have.
It was a strange comment regarding money and people of influence in your claim that Saints had this on their side. How did that work exactly? There was no legal action taken, only an appeal to the people who run the BC Tournament. Where did money come in? Which superstars did they bring in to argue their case? Conspiracy theories do not help us move forward, so please outline your case.
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vcbasket



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:44 am

@vancouverbasketball

RE "why LM schools do not like private schools"...

I thought this country was so great because (among other great things) of the
fact that even if you personally dislike somebody, you still need to treat them
equally and with respect.

"Not liking somebody" should not be the reason for double standards.

Again, if the catchment area is the reason, let's make it official. Also, why only in LM,
why no other zone has this issue with independent schools?!

Thanks,
Vladimir
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Machoops



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:06 am

Can the LM Independent Schools not have a league of their own with VC,Saints,STM,St Pats, Notre Dame, WPGA etc.....?

Would that then change the formula for the tournament?

Regardless of how good a certain team is or not there are many teams that deserves to advance to the zones but do not wether it be the islands,valleys, etc

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THErealD



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:11 am

@vancouverbasketball

I know of many student athletes who go to churchill and kits who come from out of catchment. Luka, Justin from kits live in yaletown and Nathan and sasha from churchill live in yaletown and west end respectively. To say that kits and churchill do not get players/recruit players from out of catchment is ridiculous. Also, last year milan mitrovic from saints lived in the west end. Imagine if all 5 of these players ended up going to proper schools in there respective catchments....? All top ranked/powerhouse schools get players from different areas and cathcments, its a part of the game and it happens every year. Its not just independant schools like VC and saints, its many of the top flight schools in the province that do it.
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Sim



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:08 am

@ Machoops - "Regardless of how good a certain team is or not there are many teams that deserves to advance to the zones but do not wether it be the islands,valleys, etc".

Wrong. The Fraser Valley is completely inclusive. The top 8 teams from each of the 4 regional zones qualify. Nobody that's deserving gets left out.
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vcbasket



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:58 am

@Sim,

Very good point. In my view, this problem can be easily rectified - have 16 instead of 12 teams in the LM regionals. But it seems to me
that in LM regionals, the goal is to exclude, not in to include.
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Pooch



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:53 am

Exactly right.
A few years ago the LM used to be a 32 team tournament and the same leaders who pushed for that changed it back to 12 so that the Independents could have only one berth. Behind the scenes their coaches were clear that was the goal although of course it could never be stated publicly. Every other zone has grown the number of teams in their playoffs and the LM leaders are among the biggest supporters of the new AAAA tier because it will give more teams an opportunity to have the playoff experience. They think that's wonderful except for their own zone.
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MagicMan



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:29 pm

I think the individual votes on this issue (whoever ultimately votes) should be made public. This is a public issue and their needs to be some accountability within the system. You can only do that if we know who votes for it, and who votes against it.
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bulldog10



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:34 pm

Pooch wrote:
Exactly right.
A few years ago the LM used to be a 32 team tournament and the same leaders who pushed for that changed it back to 12 so that the Independents could have only one berth. Behind the scenes their coaches were clear that was the goal although of course it could never be stated publicly. Every other zone has grown the number of teams in their playoffs and the LM leaders are among the biggest supporters of the new AAAA tier because it will give more teams an opportunity to have the playoff experience. They think that's wonderful except for their own zone.

Didn't the LM tourney drop to 16-20 teams from the 32 teams? Then I do remember about 3-4 yrs, the LM went to the current 12 team format because of too much to organize and Ind. got pushed to one berth. Emerson Murray and his StG did not make the LM and thus the BC provincial after they won the yr before vs VC. Also find it odd that VC & StG were given 1 berth by LM after that VC vs StG final!!!!
I think the LM should go back to the 16-20 teams format, thus allowing more shcools to play and possibly succeed to the Provincials....isn't it about the boys playing more basketball!! If it's about organization, let the Ind.(VC & StG) help with there facilities and exec. help. I thought VC & StG did a great job last year when the organization was throw at them....at the last moment(maybe others can expand on that!). The VC vs StG semi last yr could have filled the UBC gym, many fans got turned away.
Expanding to the old way and allowing VC & StG to earn one of the 4-5 berths to the Provincials. I think the Ind. are just asking for a chance to battle/earn a berth to Langley, since they(Ind) don't have a normal league and Van. will not let them in like FV. LM exec./commitee have to get this resolved, it's starting to look bad.
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Sim



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:56 pm

Not only should they have at least 16 teams, but they should also rank them 1-16. The current system is flawed where zone winners get an automatic top 4 seed. The current top 4 is Kits, St.George's, Burnaby Mountain & Burnett. Churchill should be the 3 seed.
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coachb



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:09 pm

With the change to 4 tiers at the Provincial tournament it would seem logical that all the various districts will be reviewing structure and format for play offs this may be a time when the lower mainland group and the independents look at a revision or again perhaps not.
In a previous post it was mentioned that other districts are inclusive of the independents. It should be noted that this is not always a harmonious relationship. A number of years ago there was a motion to exclude the independents from the Fraser Valley and the motion passed, however this was over turned when it was pointed out that this was contrary to the constitution of the Fraser Valley association.
Even if the situation does not change in the Lower Mainland it would seem to me that parents need to make even better informed decisions where they would like their child to attend school if basketball development is part of their goal. Time and time again the card is waived saying parents should be able to chose based on the strength of a school's basketball program. The extension of that would seem to point to looking at the entire picture, even berth's allowed to a particular school's league.
It is nice to see an additional level added at the Provincials but I am not naive enough to know that many of the same controversy's that are with us today will still remain. The student transfer issue will remain an emotional one that will see many split on how they feel about it.
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CoachStone21



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:45 pm

Pooch wrote:
Thank you to Mr. Lazic for putting a very human and real side to this sad story.
His son's team was never given the opportunity that coach Stone's was to participate in a playoff.
St. George's WON the Lower Mainlands last year? I didn't remember that, but coach Stone doesn't think they should even have been in there. Wow. They "bullied" their way in...right. The only people who thought they shouldn't be in were the LM zone with their obvious biases. Saints, to my knowledge, never took legal action...they just appealed to a level where saner minds prevailed...where LM coaches weren't making the decision. And they won the appeal, as any adult without a huge bias would have agreed to.
Mr. Lazic is also exactly right in pointing out that every good basketball program has kids from everywhere.
Kits, Churchill, etc are loaded with kids from outside their official boundaries and good on them. Those kids have a right to pursue their dream.
The private schools play by exactly the same eligibility rules as do the publics and there is no claim they are doing anything wrong except by anonymous people who love conspiracy theory.
Wouldn't it be lovely if every school's coach cared equally? Knew just as much about the game. Had just as much time to put in, etc. The fact is they don't and never will have and people who care will seek out the best experience possible. Good for them.
Gosh I am tired of all this.

He pooch one thing that got me in your message really pissed me off. Im not a teacher but i am a coach. I have coached high school basketball for 12 years at all grades and have since i was done high school in 98. I work for a living and then head to the gym to give my guys as much gym time i can. So what your saying is my program is garbage?

Yes St Georges did win the LM but did they win the season series against VC? I didnt think they should be in LM because they didnt win the game against VC.. Guys remember unfair or fair the AAA BC's are not the best 20 teams it done zone by zone.


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coachb



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:01 pm



He pooch one thing that got me in your message really pissed me off. Im not a teacher but i am a coach. I have coached high school basketball for 12 years at all grades and have since i was done high school in 98. I work for a living and then head to the gym to give my guys as much gym time i can. So what your saying is my program is garbage?




I guess if you really thought about it then unless you have students and parents choosing your school program must be garbage. Smile Never quite thought about it that way coach.
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Sim



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:54 pm

@CoachStone21 Re:"Guys remember unfair or fair the AAA BC's are not the 20 best teams it done zone by zone."

As adults, we should be doing our best to make sure that the best teams from each zone are represented. There's way too much time put in by kids, parents and coaches to have a few individuals make a mockery of the system.

And let's all try our best to stray away from personal attacks. It doesn't serve anybody.
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CoachStone21



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:13 pm

Sim yes i think as a zone we should be trying to send the best teams to the tourney. But again we go back to the same point its not fair if the independents get 100% of their team in just cause they are in the top 20 in the province.

Now from my understanding at the meetings if the tourney went to 16 teams the independents would still only get one team in cause it goes by rep by population in zones.

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Sim



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:46 pm

You're contradicting yourself. You can't say that we should send the best teams and then say we should limit the independents.

Maybe we should just draw names out of a hat or play 'bump'. That's better than the current system.
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CoachStone21



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:38 pm

Sorry sim wasnt meaning that but im done talking about this and has nothing to do with anyone on here but this isnt helping the game or the problem that is out there.
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basketballfan1



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:20 pm

Sim wrote:
You're contradicting yourself. You can't say that we should send the best teams and then say we should limit the independents.

Maybe we should just draw names out of a hat or play 'bump'. That's better than the current system.

I think there are two issues here that are being discussed as one.

The first issue is the Independents have their own league within the LM zone. Richmond, Vancouver and BBY/NW are the other leagues. These leauges are allotted berths in which teams compete to represent their leagues in the LM tourney. Independents get ONE berth into the LM tourney. Why would the other team (VC) be allowed into the tourney when the 7th place team in Vancouver isn't (bad example, as the seventh team did get in as KG went to AA LM Tourney)? But hopefully you get my point.

The second issue is whether to include the Independents into a leauge. How does a team go about being admitted into a league? Does each league have a catchment area? Can the two Independent schools apply to join any league they choose to? If so, have they approached Richmond, NW/BBY, or even the North Shore?

If for whatever reason they are not allowed in and there is no appeal process, why do we keep bringing this up every year? Why don't we hear from the number 3 seed from the Richmond league every year trying to get in?

This is the current system to enter the LM Tourney and all schools should understand the process. Why are you suggesting drawing names out of a hat or playing bump? They belong to a two team league and receive one berth.




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truth



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:42 pm

basketballfan1 wrote:
Sim wrote:
You're contradicting yourself. You can't say that we should send the best teams and then say we should limit the independents.

Maybe we should just draw names out of a hat or play 'bump'. That's better than the current system.

I think there are two issues here that are being discussed as one.

The first issue is the Independents have their own league within the LM zone. Richmond, Vancouver and BBY/NW are the other leagues. These leauges are allotted berths in which teams compete to represent their leagues in the LM tourney. Independents get ONE berth into the LM tourney. Why would the other team (VC) be allowed into the tourney when the 7th place team in Vancouver isn't (bad example, as the seventh team did get in as KG went to AA LM Tourney)? But hopefully you get my point.

The second issue is whether to include the Independents into a leauge. How does a team go about being admitted into a league? Does each league have a catchment area? Can the two Independent schools apply to join any league they choose to? If so, have they approached Richmond, NW/BBY, or even the North Shore?

If for whatever reason they are not allowed in and there is no appeal process, why do we keep bringing this up every year? Why don't we hear from the number 3 seed from the Richmond league every year trying to get in?

This is the current system to enter the LM Tourney and all schools should understand the process. Why are you suggesting drawing names out of a hat or playing bump? They belong to a two team league and receive one berth.





Ah yes; the "system".

To your first question, I ask you one. Do you not notice something a little different about the names of the other "leagues" in the LM zone? They are all named after geographic areas. I don't think I know where the "Independent" area of the Lower Mainland is. Yet, both schools are in Vancouver.

To your second question; the answer is yes. But the leagues have refused to allow the independents to play with them.

We keep discussing it because the "system" is one engineered by coaches with old grudges, or other grievances, against the Independent schools. Those coaches, have gerrymandered the tournament and changed the rules ALL to isolate the independent schools, to keep them out of the Lower Mainland and their tournament.

The "whatever reason they are not allowed in" is the problem. There isn't one that is legitimate. Only cooked up allegations and innuendo. All of it unfair.

So the LM have gerrymandered the system and refused to let the independents play in their leagues. As a result they are stuck in their two team "league" with only one berth.

If you don't see a problem with that, just replace the word "Independent" with the name of any ethnic, racial or religious group. Were they two black schools, two Muslim schools or two Sikh schools facing this ongoing situation, this would never be allowed to stand.

If these two schools were treated the same as all other schools in their geographic area, this problem would not exist. Yet here we are and Only in the LM zone!
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vcbasket



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:32 am

CoachStone21 wrote:
Sim yes i think as a zone we should be trying to send the best teams to the tourney. But again we go back to the same point its not fair if the independents get 100% of their team in just cause they are in the top 20 in the province.

Now from my understanding at the meetings if the tourney went to 16 teams the independents would still only get one team in cause it goes by rep by population in zones.


Then let's be consistent. Given the population that gravitates to VC/St. George's (I would say 1/30 of Vancouver high school population at best ) and the fact that not all students that attend VC/St.Georges are from Vancouver, let's allow 1 berth for independent schools every 6th year. I am sure
even that would be too much for some people, but, hey, let's be generous once in a while!
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Pooch



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:11 am

coach Stone, I have tried to understand where what I said led you to believe I was calling your program garbage. I have no idea who you coach or how good a program you run.
All I said was that not all coaches, nor all programs are equal. Some coaches are more knowledgeable, some are more passionate, etc. and that the programs those coaches represent tend to attract kids who are passionate too. Just reality. You may be one of those guys. I have no idea.
Lots of coaches that are not teachers are fabulous and I respect all who put in their time.
I was just pointing out that some kids and parents make choices based upon their perceptions of the quality of the programs out there and we can't realistically pretend that all are equal.
It is clear in the Lower Mainland that several schools are perceived as providing better basketball experiences, rightly or wrongly. Equally clearly, some of those are public schools and they do have a number of kids who have chosen to go there for the basketball experience. Good...I applaud them...if basketball means that much to them, then they have every right to choose in my opinion. I am just really tired of the Independents being the focus of all this. I am not accusing schools like Churchill or Kits of any wrongdoing at all, but let's not pretend their rosters are filled only with kids from their traditional boundaries.
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Sim



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:30 am

Pooch, you mean to tell me that New Westminster and Killarney are not part of the Churchill catchment area??

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basketballfan1



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:55 am

[/quote]

Then let's be consistent. Given the population that gravitates to VC/St. George's (I would say 1/30 of Vancouver high school population at best ) and the fact that not all students that attend VC/St.Georges are from Vancouver, let's allow 1 berth for independent schools every 6th year. I am sure
even that would be too much for some people, but, hey, let's be generous once in a while![/quote]

[/quote]coach Stone, I have tried to understand where what I said led you to believe I was calling your program garbage. I have no idea who you coach or how good a program you run.
All I said was that not all coaches, nor all programs are equal. Some coaches are more knowledgeable, some are more passionate, etc. and that the programs those coaches represent tend to attract kids who are passionate too. Just reality. You may be one of those guys. I have no idea.
Lots of coaches that are not teachers are fabulous and I respect all who put in their time.
I was just pointing out that some kids and parents make choices based upon their perceptions of the quality of the programs out there and we can't realistically pretend that all are equal.
It is clear in the Lower Mainland that several schools are perceived as providing better basketball experiences, rightly or wrongly. Equally clearly, some of those are public schools and they do have a number of kids who have chosen to go there for the basketball experience. Good...I applaud them...if basketball means that much to them, then they have every right to choose in my opinion. I am just really tired of the Independents being the focus of all this. I am not accusing schools like Churchill or Kits of any wrongdoing at all, but let's not pretend their rosters are filled only with kids from their traditional boundaries.[/quote]

[/quote]Pooch, you mean to tell me that New Westminster and Killarney are not part of the Churchill catchment area??.[/quote]



What do these comments have to do with the issue? Based on the comments about not being allowed in, suggets to me that a vote is needed for a team(s) to be accepted into a specific league. What is wrong with that process? Majority wins in this case. If you don't like the process, change it if it is possible. If there is no way to change it, get over it.


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GuyLafleur



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:29 am

Why don't VC and Saints just play in the Vancouver public school league? Are they being blocked for some reason? Or do they simply not want to join that league? I'm pretty sure they'd get 2 of the 5 berths Vancouver sends to the LMs every year.

And it's usually players who recruit other players to certain schools (eg. friends from different schools telling each other to transfer so they can make a better team). However, I know of 2 elite basketball talents in BC(one currently playing and one who played HS ball 10-15 years ago) who have personally told me stories of how they were both approached by coaches/teachers from certain private schools and blatantly asked to transfer to these schools because of their basketball skills. I'm not going to post any details here, but if anyone is really curious about who these two are or who they were being recruited by, they can PM me.
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JK



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PostSubject: BC AAAA   Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:49 am

Hopefully when the rules of the new 4A tier are drafted they focus on inclusion to make the leagues as competitive as possible. If this was hockey kids would be encouraged to choose whichever program would best help them maximize their potential. An education is the most important part of the equation but if the 4A tier of BC High School basketball can find a way to be as competitive as Junior Hockey the future opportunities for kids are exciting.
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