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 St.George's vs Vancouver College

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basketballfan1



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:22 pm

GuyLafleur wrote:
Why don't VC and Saints just play in the Vancouver public school league? Are they being blocked for some reason? Or do they simply not want to join that league? I'm pretty sure they'd get 2 of the 5 berths Vancouver sends to the LMs every year.

And it's usually players who recruit other players to certain schools (eg. friends from different schools telling each other to transfer so they can make a better team). However, I know of 2 elite basketball talents in BC(one currently playing and one who played HS ball 10-15 years ago) who have personally told me stories of how they were both approached by coaches/teachers from certain private schools and blatantly asked to transfer to these schools because of their basketball skills. I'm not going to post any details here, but if anyone is really curious about who these two are or who they were being recruited by, they can PM me.

While I don't have all the details, I think you answered your own question (Vancouver PUBLIC School League). Forget about transfers and catchment areas because we all know that kids are all over the place.

IMO, the private schools have additional resources that the public schools don't. Public schools cannot offer scholarships/financial aid to kids/parents. Public schools cannot afford to pay coaches either. They are not on a level playing field with the Independent Schools and therefore the majority of coaches are not allowing them in their league. I guess the argument made from the Independents is to prove it. But the individual leagues do not need to prove anything as it is done by a vote. Maybe down the road the vote will change, maybe it won't. It is a vote and and in a democracy not everyone is happy.

I have no issues with the Independent School that does not get in applying to get in. If they are deemed to be deserving then so be it.

I just don't know why this comes up every year. Independents have a league and one berth to the LM Tourney. It is what it is. No one has responded whether the number 3 seed in Richmond should be allowed to get into the LM Tourney. Whats the difference?
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vcbasket



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:00 pm

@basketballfan1

So, in your view, if you find enough buddies among the people who vote on the
structure of LM regionals, you don't need to prove anything? You can do whatever
you want? You can set up whatever rules you want and then marvel over how is it
that not everybody likes them?

So, again and again - why not Richmond 3? Simply because no other team in the
province is put in position (that only applies to VC/St.George's) where losing to
one team means no chance for regionals/provincials.

That is why I said - if the majority have decided that the independent schools
are represented by population, then they are still over-represented. Judging by the
numbers the independent schools should probably be allowed to compete every 6th
year. The other 5 years, only public schools should be allowed to complete. That
way we will have pure, untainted and ethical basketball.
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basketballfan1



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:23 pm

The buddies you are referring to are the coaches that make up the LM Zone. Do they not have a right in voting in the best interest for their team and their zone? What is so wrong with that? When a voting system is in place, majority will always win. If you feel that is unfair then try and have the process changed. Again, there is nothing to prove. The process is determined by a VOTE. You could probably make all your records public and show that not one student was given a scholarship/financial aid. Would that change the vote? I doubt it.

Also, I wouldn't mind a comment on whether scholarships are given to students and whether the coaches receive payment (stipend or salary).

Looking forward to your response.
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vcbasket



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:02 pm


basketballfan1 wrote:
The buddies you are referring to are the coaches that make up the LM Zone. Do they not have a right in voting in the best interest for their team and their zone? What is so wrong with that? When a voting system is in place, majority will always win. If you feel that is unfair then try and have the process changed. Again, there is nothing to prove. The process is determined by a VOTE. You could probably make all your records public and show that not one student was given a scholarship/financial aid. Would that change the vote? I doubt it.

Also, I wouldn't mind a comment on whether scholarships are given to students and whether the coaches receive payment (stipend or salary).

Looking forward to your response.

I know who votes on the make up of the LM regionals. Did I ever say they should
not be allowed to vote? However, the public is entitled to know:

1. Why do we treat independent schools differently and why is that the case only in the LM zone?
2. If the evident recruiting (by independent schools) is one of the criteria/problems, they (the voters) should go on record (because so many public schools had and have talented kids on their rosters - that transferred after grade 8/9 - and I am not sure that their scientific interests were the decisive there) - so that independent schools can respond to that or deal with that


Few other things:

1. Majority always wins? Not really - so many times the courts intervene if they decide that the rights of minorities are endangered

2. You say that the LM coaches who get to vote (apparently you think they are immune from mistakes) vote in the best interest of their zone? So, Basketball Fan 1, I have to ask you a few simple questions: Do you think it was in the best of interest of LM basketball to leave St.Georges out last year, just because those underachievers lost to VC? Do you think it is in the best interest of LM zone to leave VC out this year?

I am sorry I did not understand your last point. What about scholarships in independent schools? What is the issue with them?
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basketballfan1



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:59 pm

In response to your questions:

1) I don't know if through the voting process, each voter is required to explain the reason for their vote or even identify the way they voted.

2) I don't think recruiting should be an issue as I have already stated all schools have kids from all over.

I agree that the courts do get involved in some cases. So why haven't they here? Have the Independents tried to get the courts involved? What was the result? This has been going on for years so why does this always come up right before the LM Tourney. Why not try and have the process changed in the off season? The process I am referring to is to join a league.

I said the coaches have a right to vote in the best interest of their team and zone. My team would always come first (IMO).

Now you ask the question, whether I think it was in the best interest to leave out STG last year and VC this year. My response is yes. They are currently in a two team league and one ONLY one advances. That is the current system. We could go round and round, but why not try and change the system so that the Independents are inlcuded in a league? If that is not possible, then get over it.

My last point is probably the reason the Independents are not welcomed in any league they try to join. If you don't understand that, then this is a lost cause. I'll try and explain it again.

If Independent schools can offer scholarships to kids and can afford to pay their coaches, they are NOT on the same playing field as the Public schools.

I would like to make it clear that I do not have any affiliation to any school/organization and I do not currently coach highschool basketball or any other sport. I have in the past, coached basketball in the LM Zone (10 years ago). I hope to comeback to the coaching ranks in the future.
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Hoopfan3



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PostSubject: Fairness and best practice   Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:06 pm

As a former player and coach i am amazed by the arguments put forwad against the Independant schools participating in the Vancouver league.

Scholarships ? Lets be clear the advantage is with the public school where there is no tuition cost. What you are saying is that by making access to the school affordable and equal this is an unfair advantage - i would have thought the opposite was true.

Catchment areas - the provincial gov't has made it clear that students from outside catchment areas are allowed and encouraged to attend the school of their choice - public schools now offer special programs to attract students via fine arts programs and sports academies. The point being I am aware that many public schools have players on their sports rosters from outside the schools catchment area. Some of those schools are the ones that complain the loudest. this is not a complaint it is consistent with gov't mandate to allow students to choose what is in their best interst.

"You knew the rules "- all year the independant schools have been objecting to the unfair "2 team league" - the students have been denied the opportunity to play in a proper league with 7 or 8 league games determining whether they qualify - i dare say the commnets would be quite different if by a vote Churchill and Kits were put in a two team league with one birth to the lower mainland tournament. Majority vote is not an absolute answer - I am confident the many faith based schools would have a very strong case that a benefit ( the right to play in the same AAA league offerd to other students ) is being denied to them on the basis of criteria- no catchment area - that by definition impacts faith based schools where faith and not geography define the intended enrollment. This would be a violation of the Human Rights Code which trumps any "majority vote" of the society that governs school sports. The seperate league smacks of "seperate but equal ' which the Supreme Court has struck down as unfair . I am not advocating such claim - but simply point out that the current treatment of the inpendendant school students ( because lets keep in mind it is the students and not a "school"that is being effected) being denied this equal opportunity seems both legally unfair and logically unfair.

What is best for Lower Mainland basketball - when reading the news papers and reports of the health of high school basketball in the province it seems that over the last decade the Fraser valley has emerged as the dominant region. Great rivlalries developing, multiple great programs and far less contoversy than the Vancouver City region. i have been in the gyms when either of Saints or VC plays one of the city teams the atmosphere is great. I strongly suspect that the quality of basketball would develop like the Fraser valley with the city teams all getting dtonger. I would have thought that was the objective - doing what is best for the students in the region.

I am simply amazed that any professional could support such a vote or system.


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vcbasket



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:25 pm

@basketballfan1

Thanks for your time and input. I realize, you and I think differently and we could really
go on forever.

I will finish my discussion with you with these points:

1. I used to play and coach and I can tell you with certainty that eliminating teams who naturally (by their results) belong to LM regionals will never make you more successful
coach and your team stronger

2. After that VC-St.Georges provincial finals a few years ago, LM "voters" (in the
best interest of LM basketball) decided that 2 independent teams in the LM regionals
is way too much. So, excuse my ignorance, who got better better from that? Exclusive
LM zone or highly inclusive Fraser Valley zone? You do not need to go beyond that case.

Vladimir
[b]
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Mark Scott



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:09 pm


Let me congratulate all the contributors. This has been an excellent discussion. Every time I have felt a need to contribute, someone would come along and, thankfully, make the points better than I could have.

As I have said here in the past, I am entirely in agreement with being as inclusive as possible and letting the students at independent schools compete in an LM league (or at worst provide a fair play-in option for the second place team). The separation of independents and public schools is based on their source of funding - which is a political/ideological distinction, unrelated to the rules of play or the players themselves. Most of us agree that politics have no place in sport. Take the politics out and let them play as they do in every other jurisdiction in BC.
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GuyLafleur



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:33 pm

Hoopfan3 wrote:


Scholarships ? Lets be clear the advantage is with the public school where there is no tuition cost. What you are saying is that by making access to the school affordable and equal this is an unfair advantage - i would have thought the opposite was true.


This was the only part of your argument I saw a flaw in. Private schools like VC and St. George's are known for providing "better" education (ie. more prestige, higher in the rankings, more graduates going to top-level universities). That's already a step up that they have in attracting student-athletes. One of the biggest barriers keeping prestigious private schools from taking all the best student-athletes for themselves is the (obvious) high cost of tuition to attend these schools. By providing scholarships to athletes, Saints and VC basically get rid of this barrier to entry. Which parent wouldn't want to send their kid to a far more prestigious school if it cost the same amount of money as their child's current public school? This is made unethical by the fact that these scholarships are given to some kids simply because of their athletic abilities, and not to a student who may be more deserving because he works his butt off studying all day in order to get into a prestigious university, but doesn't play any sports(and for the record, I'm against universities/colleges providing scholarships based on athletic ability). And if you really want to deny the complete existence of private schools providing financial aid/scholarships in order to attract athletes, you can take a look at my last post where I referenced two star student-athletes I personally know who were offered "significant financial aid" by private schools in order to entice them to transfer.
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Mark Scott



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:38 pm



Guy, to clarify, if a student gets financial aid at an independent school as a result of financial need - which is why it would be provided - (and that need is assessed by an independent organization), the parents get taxed on the benefit. Tuition is approx $22,000 per yr for a full year at Saints, so the cash tax would be $6600 per yr even if the marginal tax rate was only 30%. So even a full scholarship is a significant financial commitment and a barrier that does not exist for players transferring within the public system. It certainly is not free.
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GuyLafleur



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:04 pm

Mark Scott wrote:


Guy, to clarify, if a student gets financial aid at an independent school as a result of financial need - which is why it would be provided - (and that need is assessed by an independent organization), the parents get taxed on the benefit. Tuition is approx $22,000 per yr for a full year at Saints, so the cash tax would be $6600 per yr even if the marginal tax rate was only 30%. So even a full scholarship is a significant financial commitment and a barrier that does not exist for players transferring within the public system. It certainly is not free.

Ah, makes sense. Thanks for the info.
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MagicMan



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:02 pm

When money is being given, this is generally where the issue is. I think St. George's and VC will have to be extremely transparent about scholarship support going to an athlete. Not sure what that looks like, but we all know the long list of athletes who have attended St.George's and clearly were receiving $$$$'s (we don't need to name them as everyone knows).

If an athlete transfers to St. George's / VC and is paying full tuition, then their eligibility should be based on the rules that currently exist. BUT......, if an athlete transfers and is receiving scholarship support to attend the school, somehow the level of that support needs to be communicated. Follow the money! Transparency , in a manner that protects individual rights, would be a great offer by the private schools to insure that it is more of an equal playing field with public schools.
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oldbulldog



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:13 pm

This is just an outside observation on this topic but has anyone thought about the fact that all independent teams (all sports) in the lowever mainland from grades 8 to 12 compete in leagues of their own outside the public system. I believe this point was made by Ebe's in the past (correct me if I'm wrong) in a post or at the AAA BC Boys AGM. The decision to have the independants compete in leagues of their own was decided many years ago by either the Vancouver or Lower Mainland Secondary Schools Athletic Association. This has nothing to do with the 4 lower mainland Senior Boys Basketball reps. Have VC and Saints recieved an answer from their own Lower Mainland Independent Secondary School Athletic Association as to why all the independants (boys/girls all sports 8-12) are in a separate league??? Why don't we hear from the Lower Mainland Independent Secondary School Athletic Association on this topic. If this was such a problem for the Independents wouldn't they have a much better lobby if the LMISSAA brought this forward. Maybe the LMISSAA is happy with the current situation and only the VC and Saints senior boys teams have a problem.
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Sim



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:36 pm

It's so frustrating not knowing what's going on. I've been blessed to spend countless hours with some of the top public/private coaches & teams in the Lower Mainland. They are all some of the greatest people you'll ever come across. BUT, for some reason or another they just can't work out their differences.
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truth



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:43 pm

I have to admit after reading the responses I have had it all wrong. This is not about a bunch of vindictive, petty LM coaches holding on to old grudges for stuff that MAY have happened 15 or 20 years ago.

It is in fact about making basketball better. Just look at the lousy programs they have at VC and Saints. They have paid coaches, they recruit the best players AND they offer players enormous scholarships worth even more than most university scholarships. Yet, between them, even with all these resources and advantages these two teams have only managed one provincial title in the last 50 years! Clearly they don't know what they are doing and they certainly don't know basketball. It is definitely better to keep these poor programs out of the LM
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Mark Scott



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:53 pm

truth wrote:
I have to admit after reading the responses I have had it all wrong. This is not about a bunch of vindictive, petty LM coaches holding on to old grudges for stuff that MAY have happened 15 or 20 years ago.

It is in fact about making basketball better. Just look at the lousy programs they have at VC and Saints. They have paid coaches, they recruit the best players AND they offer players enormous scholarships worth even more than most university scholarships. Yet, between them, even with all these resources and advantages these two teams have only managed one provincial title in the last 50 years! Clearly they don't know what they are doing and they certainly don't know basketball. It is definitely better to keep these poor programs out of the LM

I don't recall anyone on this forum saying the two independents should be allowed to play in a LM league with other schools in the city simply because they run better basketball programs. I don't think that is a good reason to include or exclude teams from competing. It is also not your strongest argument since the record of independents over the past 20 years shows they do run strong programs.

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Pooch



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:13 am

Truth...now, you're not being sarcastic I hope!
Those losers at the Independent schools have been dragging down the level for years! As you point out...they have advantages beyond belief and they cheat as well...
Get rid of 'em!
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truth



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:04 pm

Give your heads a shake. Yes, I was being sarcastic, trying to make a point about all the ridiculous nonsense put forward regarding paid coaches, scholarships and recruiting. If any of it were true, then these schools are obviously incompetent and not getting their monies worth with only one championship between them in 50 years. It is all BS that only exists in the deluded minds of some on this board and perpetuated by the coaches that continue to want to deny kids in independent schools in the LM, the right to be treated like kids in other schools.
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basketballfan1



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:21 pm

I dont think it has anything to do with winning it all. If both St Georges and VC were in the LM Tourney, they would most likely be in the top 5 every year, thus taking a spot away from a public school to get into the tourney.

Is it fair? Probably not. But given the chance, wouldn't you vote in the best interest of your team?

I'll keep asking the same question but am not able to get a response, so here it goes again.

Have the Independents explored any legal avenues where they would be permitted to join an exisitng league?

If there is a way, i'm sure they have the resources to make it happen. If it is soley based on votes and that is the current process, then unfortunately you are SOL.

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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:40 pm

Wow, some passion here.....I honestly think ALL lower mainland schools should compete in the LM playoffs, that includes VC and StG... Scholarships and paid coaches do not guarantee a "super program" (VCs performance at the Legal Begal confirms that)....this should always come down to being about the kids and having the times of there lives at a Provincial Finals.....letting politics or egos get in the way is sad....
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Pooch



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PostSubject: Re: St.George's vs Vancouver College   Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:56 am

basketball fan, I totally agree that coaches vote most often for what is best for their own team.
I hope I would be bigger than that and vote for what is best for all kids and all teams, but the voting record indicates you are absolutely right.
The LM zone would be much better served if it could come up with a group of basketball people who are not coaches and allow them to make the rulings. Most rational adults feel the objective for every zone tournament should be to get their best teams to the championships. Well, not in this zone and it is too bad the leaders don't recognize the independents are their constituents as well as the publics.
As far as just accepting the status quo because that is the way it is, I think that is ridiculous. Those choosing to make it that way have a clear agenda and it is a self-serving one. Just having a majority raise their hand does not necessarily make anything right. Especially when that majority has a self-interest.
Somehow we are supposed to feel it is unfair that a school who can't compete gets bumped by a team who can?? I don't feel badly if Vancouver 12 is not in the tournament if they are not even remotely competitive for a provincial berth while a zone member with a demonstrated level of competence at the highest level sits on the side. I think it is tragic for all those kids and coaches who worked hard enough to get to where they could vie for the championship only to see politics get in the way.
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