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 BC Championship draws and results

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Sportvictoria



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PostSubject: BC Championship draws and results   Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:21 am

Comprehensive, one-stop shopping, for BC Championships,

JR, SR, boys' and girls'.


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BC senior boys' "AA" draw has been released.

BC senior boys' "A" draw has been released. Game times have also been release for the "A" draw.


Last edited by Sportvictoria on Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:33 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Sheenaisapunkrocker



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PostSubject: Re: BC Championship draws and results   Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:37 pm

Hi Lyle,

First off I would like to say I have no dog in this fight, I just enjoy amatuer athletics and like to see it played at the highest level. Prehaps you can clarify some things as you seem to be in the know regarding High School hoops in this province. Looking at the AA seeds for the tournament and the rankings the differences between them is vast. Is the goal of the provincial tournament to rank teams that qualified as zone winners from different areas, regardless of strength, as the top seeds or is it to have a true draw where overall strength of teams matters. For example, assuming SMU beats Elphistone today there is no way that they should be a 8/9 seed. To me it seems unfair to everyone playing in Kamloops that due to a bad weekend SMU is punished despite having an outstanding season. If you take Island 3 or Island 4 I feel that they win almost any other zone in the Province.

No disrespect to Palmer or KC but having them seeded 3 and 4 over 4 tough island teams seems out of place. Why bother having Provincial rankings throughout the year if when it matters at the end of the season they aren't taken into account. Your ranking is a much better indicator of the strength of AA Basketball in the Province and something I feel should have been used as a guideline for the seeding.

Also, if we were trying to split up Island teams and split up teams from the same zone, why this year? Looking at last years draw the Valley got 4 berths and when the seedings were released in 2 instances there were potential quarter final games between Valley teams.
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PostSubject: Re: BC Championship draws and results   Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:01 am

Sheenaisapunkrocker wrote:
Hi Lyle,

First off I would like to say I have no dog in this fight, I just enjoy amatuer athletics and like to see it played at the highest level. Prehaps you can clarify some things as you seem to be in the know regarding High School hoops in this province. Looking at the AA seeds for the tournament and the rankings the differences between them is vast. Is the goal of the provincial tournament to rank teams that qualified as zone winners from different areas, regardless of strength, as the top seeds or is it to have a true draw where overall strength of teams matters. For example, assuming SMU beats Elphistone today there is no way that they should be a 8/9 seed. To me it seems unfair to everyone playing in Kamloops that due to a bad weekend SMU is punished despite having an outstanding season. If you take Island 3 or Island 4 I feel that they win almost any other zone in the Province.

No disrespect to Palmer or KC but having them seeded 3 and 4 over 4 tough island teams seems out of place. Why bother having Provincial rankings throughout the year if when it matters at the end of the season they aren't taken into account. Your ranking is a much better indicator of the strength of AA Basketball in the Province and something I feel should have been used as a guideline for the seeding.

Also, if we were trying to split up Island teams and split up teams from the same zone, why this year? Looking at last years draw the Valley got 4 berths and when the seedings were released in 2 instances there were potential quarter final games between Valley teams.



St. Michaels did beat Elphinstone today... and it was nowhere near close.

I have spent a lot of time on the phone in the last three days with a member draw committee with regards to the teams.

Apparently the draw committee have an 'on paper' directive to give more weight to zone winners and placings than over strength of zones or teams qualified. This was something we spent a lot of discussion time on. Most of my argument was about producing the 'fairest' draw possible based on the teams qualifed.

I am a very big fan of the NCAA format for seeding where qualifying gets you in but then a seeding is done based purely on the strength of the teams qualified. I understand that in the past, when the current seeding rules were written, getting good game results in for the purpose of BC seedings was very difficult. But in this day an age with the ability to get and record scores being a lot easier - I think we need to look at a new directive for the making of the BC draws.

I was requested to submit a suggested draw - which I did. The draw I submitted was based on how I felt the rankings (strength of teams qualified) should reflect into the seedings with some minor 'tweaking' for regional issues and recent games. More weight given to recent games over ones from earlier in the season. Several have seen it and felt it was very fair.

Lyle Dhur
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Sheenaisapunkrocker



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PostSubject: Re: BC Championship draws and results   Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:18 am

Thanks for your insight and response Lyle. Wondering if you would be willing or able to post the draw your proposed. Seems that this is something that will probably be fixed or at the very least looked at once the AA's leave Kamloops for the LEC and hopefully with a more progressive tournament committee and tournament chair. Good luck to all the teams, looks like a lot of Thursday's games in Kamloops will be outstanding. Also, I hope the AA's have fixed up the web broadcast as last year the quality was quite poor.
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PostSubject: Re: BC Championship draws and results   Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:30 pm

Sheenaisapunkrocker wrote:
Thanks for your insight and response Lyle. Wondering if you would be willing or able to post the draw your proposed. Seems that this is something that will probably be fixed or at the very least looked at once the AA's leave Kamloops for the LEC and hopefully with a more progressive tournament committee and tournament chair. Good luck to all the teams, looks like a lot of Thursday's games in Kamloops will be outstanding. Also, I hope the AA's have fixed up the web broadcast as last year the quality was quite poor.


Would not be appropriate to post the draw I submitted. The draw committee from what I understand were stuck with directives, created years ago, on how the draw was to be done.

FAR too much weight is placed on zone placings and very little weight is placed on the strength of the teams in those zone placings. That is what they are stuck with.

It has happened before... when I coached Belmont in 2008 we won the Islands by beating the defending BC AAA Champions, Dover Bay, who was ranked in the top 10 and Oak Bay... also ranked. Then we beat Mount Douglas. We got seeded 6th going into the BC's and were set up against FV # 4, Terry Fox... the #5 team in BC. The argument was that they did not do well in their zones. Terry Fox, the # 5 team in BC, had lost to the # 2, WRCA, and # 3 in BC, Yale, in the Valley's. How can that be argued that they did not do well? It was a very strong zone. I went at it with the guy who did the AAA draw and pressed him about how they placed teams. He did not have answers and could not defend any of the selections. I then pressed him about how many games he saw that year - answer... NONE. I pressed him about how many scores he saw throughout the year - answer... NONE. I could not believe it. Here he is the one doing the draw, with 'old boys club' are praising. When I pressed about why Cowichan, ranked # 8 in BC, got a 20th seed in a twenty team tourney the answer I was given was that they should have done better in their zone. I argued that they had lost only one game where Terry Fox has lost two. I asked why St. George's, # 6 in BC and also 3rd in their zone, was ranked # 7. He had no answer. To say the least I lost all respect the process at that point. To one question about why a team was ranked, I was given the answer - 'Well they were good last year'. I nearly lost it on that one. Why play all the games throughout the year just for an ignorant committee member to rank a team on reputation rather than the body of work.

A few years back for the "AA" BC's, Windsor was quite good and ranked like # 6 in BC, they were put against Lambrick Park, who was VI # 3, for the first round. Well LP was ranked like # 5 in BC. This was a first round match-up. Ouch. Hardly 'fair'.

Lyle Dhur
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Sim



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PostSubject: Re: BC Championship draws and results   Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:53 pm

Thanks for your insight Lyle. I just wish common sense could prevail once in a while. The LM committee's judgement on rankings could be questioned as well. Tomorrow's Kits/Churchill semi's is the REAL LM final.

Should be interesting when the AAA draw is done on Sunday, especially if Burnaby Mountain were to win over Bby South tomorrow at the LM's. That'd gurantee them at least a LM2.

BbyMtn, who hasn't beat a ranked team all year, could be seeded as low as 14 based on achievement this past year(behind the 8 Valley teams, the 2 Island teams, LM-1, OK-1 and HS-1). If Kits were to lose to Churchill tomorrow and finish as LM-3, they wouldn't be able to be seeded higher than Bbby Mtn.

Imagine a 15th ranked Kits playing a #2 WRCA or Walnut on Wednesday at the LEC all because the LM committee decided to give an unranked Burnaby Mountain the 3 seed at their tourney while giving a top 10 team(Churchill) the 5 seed.



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PostSubject: Re: BC Championship draws and results   Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:52 pm

Sim wrote:
Thanks for your insight Lyle. I just wish common sense could prevail once in a while. The LM committee's judgement on rankings could be questioned as well. Tomorrow's Kits/Churchill semi's is the REAL LM final.

Should be interesting when the AAA draw is done on Sunday, especially if Burnaby Mountain were to win over Bby South tomorrow at the LM's. That'd gurantee them at least a LM2.

BbyMtn, who hasn't beat a ranked team all year, could be seeded as low as 14 based on achievement this past year(behind the 8 Valley teams, the 2 Island teams, LM-1, OK-1 and HS-1). If Kits were to lose to Churchill tomorrow and finish as LM-3, they wouldn't be able to be seeded higher than Bbby Mtn.

Imagine a 15th ranked Kits playing a #2 WRCA or Walnut on Wednesday at the LEC all because the LM committee decided to give an unranked Burnaby Mountain the 3 seed at their tourney while giving a top 10 team(Churchill) the 5 seed.


All good reasons why we should use the NCAA seeding format. It's fair. The history in BC is that he PEOPLE doing the draw have favoured teams. That why they came up with the system that is so heavily weighted on zone placings.
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PostSubject: Re: BC Championship draws and results   Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:55 pm

Completely agree. But what will it take to get change??
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DickVitale2013



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PostSubject: Re: BC Championship draws and results   Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:44 pm

Gentlemen, great points. If it were to happen as Sim has laid out there would be chaos in the streets. We may have invented basketball, but the Americans have perfected it. The NCAA process is the way to go. As Sim and others have said what is the process to change it? It puts a black cloud over such a great event and game. Bureaucracy is the root of all evil. Let's do this right for the kids, please, please, please Basketball Basketball Basketball
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PostSubject: Re: BC Championship draws and results   Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:41 am

DickVitale2013 wrote:
Gentlemen, great points. If it were to happen as Sim has laid out there would be chaos in the streets. We may have invented basketball, but the Americans have perfected it. The NCAA process is the way to go. As Sim and others have said what is the process to change it? It puts a black cloud over such a great event and game. Bureaucracy is the root of all evil. Let's do this right for the kids, please, please, please Basketball Basketball Basketball


Keep in mind that the NCAA has a 'war room' full of people, all great basketball minds, scouring results from throughout the season to come up with the seedings they do. They have vitually an unlimited budget to do this.

With that being said, I am still a fan of the NCAA process - we just need to make that work for us here in BC. I think we also don't need to rush the draw out on the Sunday afternoon, since the games were done some 18-hours earlier. If there is a challenge, like "AA" had this year, the draw would not come out until AFTER that game had been played.

Bureaucracy does has it's pluses given the history of the association. The current process was put into place after there were some biased decisions made years ago.

Lyle Dhur
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PostSubject: Re: BC Championship draws and results   Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:54 pm

Speculation on a the 2013 BC "AAA" draw

Well... given the weighting they apply to zone winners... here's a GUESS at the "AAA" draw due out later today. This actually was quite difficulty given the parity.

1 Walnut Grove (FV1)
2 Kitsilano (LM1)
3 White Rock Christian (FV2)
4 Yale (FV3)
5 Claremont (VI1)
6 Burnaby South (LM2)
7 W. J. Mouat (FV4)
8 St. George's (LM3)
9 Handsworth (HS)
10 Vancouver Island Challenge game winner Oak Bay or Belmont (VI2)
11 Sardis (FV5)
12 Burnaby Mountain (LM4)

Tuesday teams - listed alphabetically
Caledonia (NW)
Enver Creek (FV6)
Mount Baker (KT)
North Peace (NC)
Pitt Meadows (FV8)
Sir Winston Churchill (LM5)
South Kamloops (OK)
Terry Fox (FV7)
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PostSubject: Re: BC Championship draws and results   Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:02 pm

i posted my draw on the Valley thread(I made a mistake as having Oak Bay as Island-1). I think the key is separating the 8 Valley teams into the 4 quadrants(2 Valley teams in each). The top 4 Mainland teams into each quadrant. The other 4 teams will be the 2 Island teams, Handsworth & Churchill...they'll be put into their respective quadrant for balance.

They'll be no real rankings except for WG & Yale on one side ...and WRCA & Kits on the other. The key is no team from the same zone plays each other in the Sweet 16.
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PostSubject: Re: BC Championship draws and results   Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:14 pm

tuesday games

Churchill vs Pitt 2:30pm
Bby Mtn vs Caledonia 4:15pm
Terry Fox vs North Peace 12:45pm
Enver Creek vs Mt. Baker 11:00am

Wednesday Games

Bby South vs Sardis 8:30am
Churchill/Pitt winner vs Walnut Grove 3:00pm
Claremont vs St Georges 1:15pm
Bby Mtn/Caledonia winner vs Yale 11:30am
South Kam vs Oak Bay or Belmont 8:15pm
Fox/North Peace winner vs Kits 4:45pm
Mouat vs Handsworth 10:00am
Enver/Mt Baker winner vs WRCA


Oak Bay is being Challenged by Belmont for the last berth on the island. This is the draw not my guess haha. I was watching the live show.
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PostSubject: Re: BC Championship draws and results   Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:29 am

Looking at the Draw i think Fox will be very happy that they get the very over rated Kit team . If they get by Kits they will walk to the final 4 which would be a huge compliment with such a young team.
CoachStone21 wrote:
tuesday games

Churchill vs Pitt 2:30pm
Bby Mtn vs Caledonia 4:15pm
Terry Fox vs North Peace 12:45pm
Enver Creek vs Mt. Baker 11:00am

Wednesday Games

Bby South vs Sardis 8:30am
Churchill/Pitt winner vs Walnut Grove 3:00pm
Claremont vs St Georges 1:15pm
Bby Mtn/Caledonia winner vs Yale 11:30am
South Kam vs Oak Bay or Belmont 8:15pm
Fox/North Peace winner vs Kits 4:45pm
Mouat vs Handsworth 10:00am
Enver/Mt Baker winner vs WRCA


Oak Bay is being Challenged by Belmont for the last berth on the island. This is the draw not my guess haha. I was watching the live show.
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PostSubject: Re: BC Championship draws and results   Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:26 am

Looking at the draw it looks like the organizers came up with a fair draw despite everyone bitching in advance.
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PostSubject: Re: BC Championship draws and results   Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:03 am

coachb wrote:
Looking at the draw it looks like the organizers came up with a fair draw despite everyone bitching in advance.


Well not quite if you look at it closer.

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PostSubject: Re: BC Championship draws and results   Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:51 am

And 1 wrote:
Looking at the Draw i think Fox will be very happy that they get the very over rated Kit team . If they get by Kits they will walk to the final 4 which would be a huge compliment with such a young team.
CoachStone21 wrote:
tuesday games

Churchill vs Pitt 2:30pm
Bby Mtn vs Caledonia 4:15pm
Terry Fox vs North Peace 12:45pm
Enver Creek vs Mt. Baker 11:00am

Wednesday Games

Bby South vs Sardis 8:30am
Churchill/Pitt winner vs Walnut Grove 3:00pm
Claremont vs St Georges 1:15pm
Bby Mtn/Caledonia winner vs Yale 11:30am
South Kam vs Oak Bay or Belmont 8:15pm
Fox/North Peace winner vs Kits 4:45pm
Mouat vs Handsworth 10:00am
Enver/Mt Baker winner vs WRCA


Oak Bay is being Challenged by Belmont for the last berth on the island. This is the draw not my guess haha. I was watching the live show.

Really? Kits is looking nice now that Justin's healthy, Fox is probably gonna get walked over
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PostSubject: Re: BC Championship draws and results   Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:26 am

Kits are far from over-rated and are a solid bet to be in the final.
They have the most over-all talent in the province, with a very deep bench.
Kids from all over the city see it as the place to go for basketball and it shows.
A Fox win would be a huge upset, but Kits do have a poor record of keeping it together at this time of year lately.
Going on recent level of play I see Fox having almost no chance of beating them, although well coached and hard working. Just too much talent, size and experience on Kits.
I should also say that while I worried what draw might result if a formula was followed, that the draw committee did an excellent job.
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PostSubject: Re: BC Championship draws and results   Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:39 pm

Kits a solid bet to be in the finals. I wouldn't be so sure. Although they've beaten WRCA twice their 3rd potential match-up can go either way. Any team making the semis has an opportunity. Kits may have the advantage from winning twice, but it's slight. I wouldn't say they have the best overall talent either I can tell you that WRCA, Yale and WG has as good or better talent in their starting five. Most teams aren't playing more than seven and all are equally talented. I agree though that Fox is in tough, but will their experience from last year and coaching make this a game!
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PostSubject: Re: BC Championship draws and results   Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:21 pm

I definately think that Kits will and should win this game but taking a look at the top 4 teams there is defiantly a drop off after WG ,WRCA,Yale .Kits has shown in the past not to come through in big games and Fox is scrappy and well coached .
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PostSubject: Re: BC Championship draws and results   Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:32 pm

Kits has easiest road to Final 4. Their quadrant is the weakest.

It's tough to please everybody with the draw. But the committee found a way to screw up an unscrewable draw. My main 2 concerns are:

1.THEY felt S.Kamloops & Island-2 are both top 10 teams in this tourney. How?? Why??

2.Potentially having 4 Valley teams play each other in the Sweet 16. Why couldn't they have separated all 8 Valley teams equally into the 4 quadrants(with 2 in each quadrant). Why would you invite Valley teams and have them knock each out on Wednesday. No teams from the same zone should ever play each other until the Elite 8. You'd never see to ACC or Big 10 teams play each other in the first round of the NCCA tournament right after competing against each other in their respective conference tourney.

You know the COMMITTEE needs a change when they say, "the best team will win regardless of draw." That's not a great answer to parents, players & coaches who have put in thousands of hours/dollars to get to this point.

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PostSubject: Re: BC Championship draws and results   Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:47 pm

Yes, I was wondering why WG the top seed plays the winner of the toughest play-in game between Churchill/Pitts, both teams who have spent time in Top 10. They then would have to play the winner of South and Sardis who have both been playing their best ball. Tsumura stated that the premier games in the play-in are Churchill/Pitt and next round Sardis and South and yet Walnut will have to play both. Doesn't make sense to me, as they should have had an easier route. I know the committe is saying that they blew out Sardis and Pitt this year, but that isn't the point they should have been given an easier draw. Grove has to come focused as these aren't pushovers. Yale spent most of the time at #1 this year, but has the toughest opponent in elite 8.
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PostSubject: Re: BC Championship draws and results   Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:05 pm

For those of you that have been around for some time is there always this much whining over the draw or does it seem like this year there is more than in the past?
WG - play in game, 8 from the valley vs 5 from the lower mainland how is that a hardship?
Kits - play in game, 7 from the valley vs North Peace?
I look at the draws and see some good match ups coming early. WRCA vs winner of Enver and Mt Baker there's a good game and WR was 2 out of the valley. Lots of good teams this year with some tough battles in the early rounds.
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PostSubject: Re: BC Championship draws and results   Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:08 pm

1. FV1 Walnut Grove
2. LM1 Kitsilano
3. FV2 White Rock Christian
4. FV3 Yale
5. VI1 Claremont
6. FV4 Mouat
7. OK1 South Kamloops
8. LM2 Burnaby South
9. FV5 Sardis
10. VI2 Oak Bay/Belmont
11. HS1 Handsworth
12. LM3 St Georges
13. LM4 Burnaby Mountain
14. FV6 Enver Creek
15. FV7 Terry Fox
16. LM5 Sir Winston Churchill
17. FV8 Pitt Meadows
18. NC1 North Peace
19. KT1 Mount Baker
20. NW1 Caledonia

These are the rankings from the draw from what I make of it.
And I must agree with some of the points that have previously been made. South Kamloops at the 7 seed is the biggest misstep in the draw from my vantage point, as previously mentioned by Lyle, you can certainly see that the draw heavily wieghed zone winners and placings over strength of zones or teams qualified.
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PostSubject: Re: BC Championship draws and results   Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:56 pm

maybe they gave S.Kamloops the 7 seed as payback for really screwing it up for #1 Kelowna in last year's draw.
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