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 AAU Ball and player entitlement

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coachinainteasy



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PostSubject: Re: AAU Ball and player entitlement   Mon May 06, 2013 2:43 pm

This thread paints a bleak picture of bball here in BC. Coaches hate players. Players with attitude and resentment to their HS coaches. Clubs and Provincial organizations competing against each other and not communicating.... Can't really be that bad.
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mason2013



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PostSubject: Re: AAU Ball and player entitlement   Mon May 06, 2013 7:05 pm

coachinainteasy wrote:
This thread paints a bleak picture of bball here in BC. Coaches hate players. Players with attitude and resentment to their HS coaches. Clubs and Provincial organizations competing against each other and not communicating.... Can't really be that bad.

I thought that at first too until I heard the degrading comments for myself. In fact, I was at a HS game prior to provincials with a lot of grandparents that were there supporting their grandkids that were actually appauled at the behaviour of the coaches as well as the comments that were clearly heard. It is that bad. The attitude of some coaches needs to be checked at the door as well. The game has evolved. Club ball is here. And in my opinion, THIS is one of the reasons a resolution to the national team isn't resolved. Let's stop blaming on the kids and an apparent "entitlement" issue. Grown ups should act as grown ups.
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ebe



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PostSubject: Re: AAU Ball and player entitlement   Tue May 07, 2013 12:06 am

coachinainteasy wrote:
This thread paints a bleak picture of bball here in BC. Coaches hate players. Players with attitude and resentment to their HS coaches. Clubs and Provincial organizations competing against each other and not communicating.... Can't really be that bad.

I don't think this paints a bleak picture I just think there have been some major changes to how players are developing in the off season over the last 10 years and it has brought up some issues that have caused some concern. This thread isn't about blaming anybody I hope it is about honestly looking at the issues and trying to come up with solutions. Like it or not some AAU Club Ball is very problematic for many in the basketball community, mostly in the US, due to the generally under regulated nature of it. There are some out there who are exploiting naive players and parents for a large profit. This is not to say that High School or University programs are perfect as there is also some negative things happening in this arena as well. I started this thread so people could take an honest and open look at some of the issues happening in AAU as I think people need to be educated about these issues. I encourage people to post other articles or videos about this topic so we can continue the discussion.

As far as BC Teams are concerned I too am very disspointed that our top players are not playing for BC this year. I think for a long time it has been a goal and/or dream for most players to represent their Province as this is really is the highest honour for a player other than representing their country. However this goal has changed recently as players are choosing to play for their clubs instead. Personally I think the clubs should encourage their players to play for BC and be proud of them if they make it. I was one of the first to start club teams back in the 90's as we ran a Nike sponsored team for many summers. I would always wait until after the BC team tryouts to pick my team and I would work with the players that didn't make it. I am not saying that this is the only way or the correct way to do it but it worked very well for me and for the players. As a matter of fact one of the goals we would set for our club players was if they got cut by the BC Team we would try to help them make it the next year and we had a few players who did this. I understand that the BB scene has changed since the 90's and this model may not work anymore but I think it is worth considering.
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mason2013



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PostSubject: Re: AAU Ball and player entitlement   Tue May 07, 2013 1:20 am

Ebe what I am saying is maybe we need to seriously start at the HS coaching level. I hear a lot of talk about how we all need to understand the volunteer work and time HS coaches put in.... however how beneficial is it when these same individuals are having temper tantrums on the bench... throwing clipboards, yelling at spectators in the audience to shut the f** up and referees...etc. And we are blaming club coaches to kids having an entitlement issue??? First and foremost these kids and coaches are representing their schools???? They should be expected to be leaders just as much as the kids. I didn't see much done about this all season long. In fact refs where expected to just deal with this bad behaviour. And what is the most amusing is IF the kids behaved towards their coach in the same fashion....well we all know they wouldn't see much play time.


I know of a couple such coaches that told kids that have played for many many years ....you can't do anything....you barely can shoot... you suck....Cmon these kids have put in a LOT of work on club teams to be put down like that when they have hardly had a practice or two isn't exceptable. (and these are adults???) In the words of Jesus here in the forum it really seems like haters are gonna hate. Kids can learn something from each and every coach they encounter. They need to do their job by developing these kids on their individual HS teams.

In my many years of club teams I NEVER experienced this type of negativity.


And I do agree with you, it would be great to represent your province at Nationals.. We as a province should make every effort to have the VERY BEST team possible ...yet politics are still getting in the way.... If it is such a great priviledge then make it happen whether or not kids decide to play club ball. Have tryouts strictly for a national team...doesn't seem difficult.

When kids are told they would NEVER make a BBC team why bother trying.....why would they???hmmmm It is starting at the high school.


Last edited by mason2013 on Tue May 07, 2013 1:55 am; edited 2 times in total
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BBCfan1



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PostSubject: Re: AAU Ball and player entitlement   Tue May 07, 2013 1:31 am

Coach Ebe,

you say that they should all play BC but why do the clubs have to weaken their teams? Why is BC run like an AAU Club program why can we not have a two week training camp picking the best players to represent our province? Isnt BBC the Umbrella program for ALL programs in BC should they not be helping the clubs instead of taking away from them? My hope is every year BC puts together the best team possible but i do not blame these kids for not wanting to leave their club programs that some of been with since grade 4 and up why must they build the relationships with their club coaches and then at the U15 and U17 level have to choose?
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mason2013



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PostSubject: Re: AAU Ball and player entitlement   Tue May 07, 2013 1:41 am

BBCfan1 wrote:
Coach Ebe,

you say that they should all play BC but why do the clubs have to weaken their teams? Why is BC run like an AAU Club program why can we not have a two week training camp picking the best players to represent our province? Isnt BBC the Umbrella program for ALL programs in BC should they not be helping the clubs instead of taking away from them? My hope is every year BC puts together the best team possible but i do not blame these kids for not wanting to leave their club programs that some of been with since grade 4 and up why must they build the relationships with their club coaches and then at the U15 and U17 level have to choose?

Exactly!!
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ebe



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PostSubject: Re: AAU Ball and player entitlement   Tue May 07, 2013 4:13 am

mason2013 wrote:
BBCfan1 wrote:
Coach Ebe,

you say that they should all play BC but why do the clubs have to weaken their teams? Why is BC run like an AAU Club program why can we not have a two week training camp picking the best players to represent our province? Isnt BBC the Umbrella program for ALL programs in BC should they not be helping the clubs instead of taking away from them? My hope is every year BC puts together the best team possible but i do not blame these kids for not wanting to leave their club programs that some of been with since grade 4 and up why must they build the relationships with their club coaches and then at the U15 and U17 level have to choose?
Exactly!!

I guess I just don't see it as weakening their teams but it all depends on what you are trying to accomplish. I believe it is about player development and in the end in the spring and summer the winning and losing is less important than player development. If I lose a couple of players from a high school or club team than I see that as an opportunity for other players to step up and get a chance. If my club team is playing in Gym C at Rancho Buena Vista Gym against some team from Rancho Cuca Munga California I just don't see that winning that game is more important than developing my players. We are trying to expose players to a higher level of ball so they will know how hard they have to work to try and get to that level. As I said I understand that players view of the BC teams is different than it was previously and there needs to be a strong look at how we can try and fix this. A far as BBC acting like a AAU program I would suggest to you that if clubs were able to run the type of programs that BBC runs I think they would be doing very well. BBC has a mandate to offer YEAR ROUND elite training to its players and I can say from first had experience they do it very well.
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coachinainteasy



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PostSubject: Re: AAU Ball and player entitlement   Tue May 07, 2013 1:34 pm

I don't really think that basketball in this province is in a state of disrepair. I simply wanted to point out that someone reading this thread may get that opinion.

I see the club system developing every year. That's great. I don't see why all the best players need to play basketball BC, Drive or any other club. If we're really concerned with player development, we shouldn't give the same few kids all the best opportunities. Spread it around. The more kids that get great opportunities to play, the better. All the clubs and BBC have a niche, something unique to offer. Stick to that, market that, and let the kids choose. That way more kids are exposed to coaching and competition... not just the select few.

An analogy would be the sports programs in a typical high school. If 7 or 8 of the best athletes decided to try out for every team in the school.. Basketball, football, tennis, ..... They'd probably make every team and take spots from good but lesser athletes. Especially at the younger grade levels. That leaves multiple kids with zero opportunity to participate and develop. Kids miss out. My convoluted point? Why should the "best" players get to do everything? Let's spread it around!






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DickVitale2013



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PostSubject: Re: AAU Ball and player entitlement   Tue May 07, 2013 5:07 pm

So many significant points, so where do you start.

Coach Ebe besides the coaching staff at BBC there are plenty of others around the Province including Club teams that can and have developed players. A priority of yours is player development, which should be every coach’s priority. I've heard Clubs criticized for developing or profiling certain players. I can tell you as an avid HS fan this is no different than the HS system. There are numerous HS programs that played no more than 6-8 players during the season, so did the other players develop? You would have to ask the individual player.

What's undeniable is that Club programs have been intimately involved in the development of the majority of the top players in the 2013 and 2014 class, not just Drive, but many others like One Pass Ahead, Trans Canada, 3D, Vikes Bball Academy, Athelite and Allball. These are just other avenues where kids can get good coaching, training and competition to grow as players. How many of these same kids are involved in the BBC developmental programs? How many participated in your Center of Performance Program or Regional Teams (which are like Club teams)? What other initiatives are you taking to develop players?

The elite 2014 group is comprised of Club players who would have competed for a gold medal at Nationals. Interestingly, you point out that this situation has to be worked out, yet BBC saw this coming years ago and knew of the very strong 2014 class, but did little except provide an ultimatum for the respective players, BBC or Club team? As you eloquently pointed out the players develop by playing better and stronger competition and this is why many Club players are leaps and bounds ahead of the next tier. Can you seriously fault the players for sticking with the program and coaches they are familiar with especially if they have gotten better and garnered success and opportunity. The bottom line is that Club teams are just as adept at developing players as BBC. Look at their coaching staffs they all come with a lot of experience.

BBC's fatal flaw has been not to recognize and work with HS and Club teams to focus on the identification and development of the top players within the Province for the Nationals, university and the Canadian National Team. Coachinainteasy, within any competitive sport there must be a higher authority responsible for the identification and development of the elite players for the reasons above, which should be the ROLE of BBC. They are in fact affiliated with Basketball Canada. What players have been identified this year for the Junior National and Cadet Team tryouts who should all come out of the Club system? There are numerous HS and Club teams that offer programs and development for all. Tryouts are open for Club teams and if a program is too strong than a player has the opportunity to try out for another program. No one is force feeding kids into a certain program. Some players who played BBC have moved onto clubs this year and vice versa. It is a matter of choice. And BBC provided no choice, but provided the alternative - an ultimatum - had they focused on Nationals and player development they would have had all the elite players enter their program.

You're putting every player into the same category and that's not how it works - In the evolution of a player's development its first 1) participation 2) development 3) competition and 4) continued development in the pursuit of excellence. The majority of players careers end upon graduation except for the ones who spent countless hours in the gym honing their skills and becoming elite to play at the next level through a tireless worth ethic and (possible) mentorship. We are talking of separate issues on this thread. Basketball is not in dire straits, matter of fact it appears to be on the climb with the success of HS ball and the creation of numerous club teams as far down as the grassroots level and the future is getting brighter.

BBC needs to understand its significance beyond having Provincial teams by aggressively marketing the game to the young to ensure its growth at the grassroots level, acquiring further Provincial funding comparable to soccer and hockey, ensuring the programs and development is consistent around the Province, identifying, supporting and training coaches, recognizing the relevance and importance of Club ball and working cohesively with these groups to identify and further develop our best players to participate at the Nationals, university level and National team.

BBC has impressive alumni, but this is when Club ball did not exist. I wonder had it would have the top players as many of the current 2013s and 2014s gone the club ball route instead. This is simply an issue of bureaucracy, arrogance and lack of sound leadership and vision. Imagine where this Province and the kids will be if just some of these concerns are aggressively pursued. It's a beautiful game, but it's the governing bodies that are killing it, not the kids!
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JesusShuttlesworth



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PostSubject: Re: AAU Ball and player entitlement   Fri May 10, 2013 3:10 pm

Another article on the subject which is in direct response to the original Dave Telep column that Coach 'Ebe' originally started this thread with. All thought-provoking stuff.

http://coachgeorgeraveling.com/do-elite-high-school-hoops-create-culture-of-entitlement/

The hype/media attention surrounding high school players (talking US hoops) is magnitudes greater than it was 20 even 10 years ago. That's thanks to Telep and others, as there are dozens of articles on sites like ESPN, Rivals, Scout etc. about every time a kid being recruiting has a good game, takes on an official visit, etc. With that kind of media attention focused on them, I don’t expect the same kind of humility to exist. It's a different time, with different social norms, values etc., and the North American culture as a whole has become a place where fantasy and reality have traded places, where popular culture has become our center point of gravity, our common language. I can’t really blame some young kid developing such an outlook when growing up surrounded by a society that promotes a pop culture that equates hard work and self determination with being a chump.
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ebe



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PostSubject: Re: AAU Ball and player entitlement   Fri May 10, 2013 4:35 pm

Thanks for sharing that article jesus it is a good read and offers some insight from a players point of view. I think however the most important part of the article once again touches on player development:
"we’ve turned summer basketball into a “silly season.” It’s endless travel and games that really don’t mean anything. Instead of emphasizing skill development, summer basketball is about showcasing talent for college recruiters. If we want young players to perform at a higher, more intense level, we need to reduce the number of games they play and emphasize skill development."
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basketballfan1



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PostSubject: Re: AAU Ball and player entitlement   Fri May 10, 2013 5:50 pm

ebe wrote:
Thanks for sharing that article jesus it is a good read and offers some insight from a players point of view. I think however the most important part of the article once again touches on player development:
"we’ve turned summer basketball into a “silly season.” It’s endless travel and games that really don’t mean anything. Instead of emphasizing skill development, summer basketball is about showcasing talent for college recruiters. If we want young players to perform at a higher, more intense level, we need to reduce the number of games they play and emphasize skill development."

I think BasketballBC should lead the charge and scrap their provincial teams playing the AAU circuit. If the goal is to develop players, they are doing a diservice to their own provincial teams as they can't get together and practice until after June as the team is comprised of players throughout the province. Atleast the club teams are made up of players locally and can practice throughout the spring/summer and develop as a team.

If you really think about it, BBC practices as a whole team for about three weeks, then head off to vegas to get smacked around and then return to play a another tourney and then head to Nationals. Make a deal with the club teams that after the first vegas tourney, the players selected for the nationals are now required to practice/play with BBC.

Its a win/win scenario for all groups inolved with basketbal in BC.

My opinion is to have BBC run CP in the spring/summer like they do in the fall. This will definately help develop a lot more players than by picking 18-24 kids in each age group and practising once a week and playing in one or two tourneys on the weekends.

If BBC adopted this model, they would still generate revenue, be able to pick 12 players from all the club teams at the end of June and send the best BC has to offer to Nationals.

What do you think BBC?
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Lefon Jang



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PostSubject: Re: AAU Ball and player entitlement   Fri May 10, 2013 8:52 pm

With the recent change in the AAU age limit you can pretty much play AAU all the way until you turn 19. Whereas BBC still stays strictly within the U-17 age limit. In that regard, it's really meaningless for BBC to compete in AAU tournaments. All the clubs have already made adjustment to include graduated grade 12 (college bound) players in their rosters.
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Mark Scott



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PostSubject: Re: AAU Ball and player entitlement   Sun May 12, 2013 1:41 pm


The term AAU is so broad as to be meaningless. Not all AAU clubs are the same, just as not all high school programs are the same. There are some excellent programs and some poor programs.

We can all think of examples of poorly run high school programs where coaching and support are indifferent. Yet no one expects excellent schools and coaches to apologize for the weaknesses of those who don't live up to the same standards.

In my experience with Basketball BC there is no substantial difference in the schedule between BBC and the top clubs. When choosing where to play last summer we compared the schedules of Drive and BBC and found that during the same period BBC competed in more tournaments and practiced less than Drive. This is not a criticism of BBC just a fact of their program and something to keep in mind when implying that simply being an AAU club determines behaviour. BBC's elite teams are AAU clubs in all respects except they are government-funded, they have the right to play at the national championships and call themselves a provincial team. We should criticize a particular program's behaviours or a format rather than a category of teams.

Most of their AAU opponents, particularly in Las Vegas, think that the British Columbia team is just another club because the US doesn't have state-run basketball teams.

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Coach Yash



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PostSubject: Re: AAU Ball and player entitlement   Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:10 pm

Thought I'd share this excerpt from a good read on the Spurs: http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/9364989/san-antonio-spurs-doing-right-drafting-international-athletes-espn-magazine

Quote :
The article that Buford has finished, printed from ESPN.com, sits on his desk. Its headline: "The Entitlement Culture of Elite HS Hoops." In it, recruiting analyst Dave Telep writes about not only witnessing AAU players complain about the food at a Ritz in California during a tournament but also what he calls the slow and steady crumble of American grassroots basketball: loafing, lousy fundamentals, a pervasive disinterest from players in showcasing anything but themselves.

Buford had lived much of what he read. With two sons who recently played college basketball and rose through the AAU scene, Buford has had a floor seat to the yawning divide in how the game is taught in America and overseas. In AAU, anyone who pays a $16 fee and finishes a background check and an online clinic can coach. In the FIBA club system in Europe, although requirements vary from country to country, coaches must earn various licenses, which often require them to complete intensive training, covering everything from X's and O's to nutrition. The U.S. has the NCAA serving as a conflicted arbiter of both the players' time and money; there is no pretense of amateurism overseas, and for better or worse, practices often last hours longer than our regulated college ones. The Spurs, of course, are not in the business of worrying about the demands on a student-athlete's time and saw it as a plus that guys like Ginobili and Parker had been playing club basketball since they were teenagers, schooled by accredited coaches, the 10,000-hour rule brought to the hardwood. Consider Pop's brutal assessment that foreign players are "fundamentally harder working than most American kids," and it's no wonder the Spurs want to avoid the fate of so many NBA teams, which are, as Buford says, "the end of the road for the developmental habits that are built in the less-structured environment in the U.S."
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