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 Modified Mini Rules

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CoachDJR



Posts : 737
Join date : 2010-01-22
Location : Southern NB

PostSubject: Re: Modified Mini Rules   Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:10 am

The last thing I want to do is start another point for point argument. Again from the cheap seats its looks a like the problems that we have in youth basketball that concern peolpe with the new rules is how unlike adult sport it looks. Using adult standards for sports (types or games, rules, focus on winning, etc) is what costs us late developing athletes. Youth sports need to be supportive of all the youth playing them.

I can't reproduce the entire LTAD below (but I will provide a link). This is our National Sport body working in conjunction with National Health and Sport associations, using research and professionals to determine what is the best model for developing athletes in that will have healthy lifestyles, learn to be basketball players and train to be high level athletes. This model is our long term athlete development plan. I'll add a couple of snipets that I think apply to this conversation and the link for people that want 80 pages or so of reading to be more informed on what it is rather then hearing it as a term that gets tossed around.

This is a commentary when looking at athletic calendars and how the "competitive" basketball model is an idea that has been created outside of the scope and intention of the LTAD development model.


The basketball delivery system consists of three streams:
health of the nation, develop the game and compete
for the nation. Another stream has crept into the
delivery system that is beginning to dominate the
development stage. We call it “competitive basketball.”
In this stream, games between 2 teams dominate. Some
players are not receiving suffi cient time for training.
When practice to competition ratios are at a 1 to 1
or 1 to 2 ratio, quick development may occur, but
performance always plateaus later. Coaches may claim
that the team improves, but players are not able to
work on their fundamental movement and basketball
skills. Mental and social/emotional training often gets
ignored. Training is dominated by strategies and tactics
in preparation for the next game. In many situations,
players are not receiving quality playing time. Players
therefore do not get an opportunity to use their skills;
they lose conditioning, lose interest and drop out of
the sport at the younger stages. Often these are late
maturing athletes. Our children are currently playing too
many games without enough quality training. We have
adopted adult models for youth sport. All sports must
get a handle on this situation.

These are the recommended game modifications for older mini aged athletes. Generally where the modifications BNB implemented comes from.

GAME MODIFICATIONS
Use a smaller ball:
• Baskets should be 2.60 metres to 2.74 metres high;
• Play more 1-on-1, 2-on-2, 3-on-3, 4-on-4 as this allows more
touches of the ball then 5-on-5;
• Play player-to-player defence;
• Everyone should play every position;
• Allow some violations to occur, but explain the rules;
• Equal playing time;
• Adjustments to the court size, substitutions and the length of the
game;
• Early in this stage it is not recommend that a visible score be
kept. Progress to keeping score towards the end of the stage;
• Rules that encourage the use of the basic skills over-elaborate
tactics and strategies are recommended. For example, whoever
rebounds the ball must advance the ball up the fl oor.


Here is the link to the entire LTAD document.
http://www.basketball.nb.ca/app/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=GJk24%2fB1vk4%3d&tabid=36&mid=985&language=en-US
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Bev Sinclair



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PostSubject: Re: Modified Mini Rules   Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:44 pm

At least Canadian association - and I want to say Manitoba - has moved to 3 on 3 at the mini level. Bev
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C-N '06-'09



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PostSubject: Re: Modified Mini Rules   Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:52 pm

rivhoops wrote:
Well I've taken time to read and re-read all the comments posted on this thread and I do like some of the rule changes, but there are a few I just can get my head around to the fact that it will make things better as a whole.

First of all I do like the 4 on 4 rule, but not for Provincial "competitive teams". I think that it's the house leagues that should be concentrating on that as they are the ones that should be pushing for more touches for those kids. House leagues should be considered strictly Rec leagues. These are the kids for the most part that need the extra room on the floor to benefit. House leagues should be the primary stepping stone for fundamental developments and that is where they should keep all their focus on.

If you are playing or coaching Provincial ball, you are playing in a competitive league. So the main emphasis and expectations for players and coaches playing at this level would be to win, especially in tournament and provincial banner games, correct? Why else would you play and travel the province for basketball? Going to the 4 x 4 format at the provincial level will have more negative effects on the game then positive ones. First of all you open the floor up for the more skilled players on a prov team to drive more to the basket and play a more one on one style game now that there is more room to move. Plus they will still get the same amount of touches as before, if not more. If you think giving weaker less confident players more room on the court is helping them I think that it will prove to be a negative, the ball, no matter what, is going to end up landing in the hands of the most skilled player(s) on the floor at any given time.

Another issue to think about is that some of the 2nd year mini (grade 6) players will play on their middle school teams starting in January, how will the change from 4 x 4 to 5 x 5 effect them plus take into consideration those kids going back to the 4 x 4 format with their mini teams in time for age class provincials, what effects will this have on those players and how they play? Remember they're just 11 and 12 year kids old at best.

Another problem with the 4 x 4 rule is that PEI and NS are not on board as of yet(correct me if i'm wrong), so what do we do if we get invited to a tournament or games in those provinces as many teams do, especially the ones that are close to the borders? Plus how do we deal with those teams coming to NB to play us?

I like the game cap of 30 games in a season, it gives teams more time to focus on practicing, but how and who will police it properly? Who is responsible for accountability? High school JV teams are limited to a 28 game season, seams only natural that mini play less than that.

Most coaches will opt to take 10 players vs 11 or 12 now with the rule changes which will be interesting to see. Fair play rules are a logistical nightmare at best with 11 or 12 kids, the new format with a 10 player roster is optimal, plus if a team member is unable to make a game it may actually become an advantage for that squad.

No screens, well most kids at that age get it wrong no matter how much you try and teach them so that I guess is a positive to take that away at this age and the existing rule of no zones and no double teaming is good as well. I find that that style of defence just makes players lazy. Man to man and nothing else for this level. I do believe teaching help defence is a must though at all age levels.

The substitution revised rule also now makes sense. The change from 8 3 1/2 shifts to 10 3 min shifts is good as well, that's kind of a neutral change, it works better with the 4 x 4 set up.
If the extra space during a 4 on 4 game is only used by coaches to give room to their top players, then that is a coaching problem. The goal of the rule change is to allow ball movement and more touches, so coaches should be coaching their players to increase ball movement. If the only goal for kids at this age is to win then two things will happen. Many of these players will leave the sport before they get to the age that they can potentially play at a high level, and those that do stay in the sport won't develop to their full potential. Being result oriented at this age is very detrimental to youth and those kids that are competitive, most likely have learned to be as competitive as they are because of the adults in their life. If the highlight of a players basketball career is winning a provincial basketball championship at age 10, then there is a problem with the system. As far as going out of province, touch on the position a practice or two before going out of province. If your players know how to run a 4 player offense successfully, adding one "position" should be simple if you are running a motion. Grade 6/JV teams should focus more on a 5th position. Saying these kids won't be able to adjust from 4 on 4 to 5 on 5 is like saying that last year Peewee hockey players wouldn't able to adjust from a province that allowed checking to a province that didn't, but those kids managed. The goal of going out of province for the kids is to stay at a hotel and go swimming anyway. Is playing 5 on 5 really that big of a concern?

Playing 30 games during the mini season is still fewer games/week then 28 games during the JV season. The NBIAA asks teams to send in a form recording all games played. I assume something similar will happen to police mini.

Any complaint I have seen seems like and adult problem, but that not why we're here. At the end of the day, the kids just want to play, have fun, and learn some skills.
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ballnut



Posts : 158
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PostSubject: Re: Modified Mini Rules   Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:25 pm

C-N '06-'09 wrote:
rivhoops wrote:
Well I've taken time to read and re-read all the comments posted on this thread and I do like some of the rule changes, but there are a few I just can get my head around to the fact that it will make things better as a whole.

First of all I do like the 4 on 4 rule, but not for Provincial "competitive teams". I think that it's the house leagues that should be concentrating on that as they are the ones that should be pushing for more touches for those kids. House leagues should be considered strictly Rec leagues. These are the kids for the most part that need the extra room on the floor to benefit. House leagues should be the primary stepping stone for fundamental developments and that is where they should keep all their focus on.

If you are playing or coaching Provincial ball, you are playing in a competitive league. So the main emphasis and expectations for players and coaches playing at this level would be to win, especially in tournament and provincial banner games, correct? Why else would you play and travel the province for basketball? Going to the 4 x 4 format at the provincial level will have more negative effects on the game then positive ones. First of all you open the floor up for the more skilled players on a prov team to drive more to the basket and play a more one on one style game now that there is more room to move. Plus they will still get the same amount of touches as before, if not more. If you think giving weaker less confident players more room on the court is helping them I think that it will prove to be a negative, the ball, no matter what, is going to end up landing in the hands of the most skilled player(s) on the floor at any given time.

Another issue to think about is that some of the 2nd year mini (grade 6) players will play on their middle school teams starting in January, how will the change from 4 x 4 to 5 x 5 effect them plus take into consideration those kids going back to the 4 x 4 format with their mini teams in time for age class provincials, what effects will this have on those players and how they play? Remember they're just 11 and 12 year kids old at best.

Another problem with the 4 x 4 rule is that PEI and NS are not on board as of yet(correct me if i'm wrong), so what do we do if we get invited to a tournament or games in those provinces as many teams do, especially the ones that are close to the borders? Plus how do we deal with those teams coming to NB to play us?

I like the game cap of 30 games in a season, it gives teams more time to focus on practicing, but how and who will police it properly? Who is responsible for accountability? High school JV teams are limited to a 28 game season, seams only natural that mini play less than that.

Most coaches will opt to take 10 players vs 11 or 12 now with the rule changes which will be interesting to see. Fair play rules are a logistical nightmare at best with 11 or 12 kids, the new format with a 10 player roster is optimal, plus if a team member is unable to make a game it may actually become an advantage for that squad.

No screens, well most kids at that age get it wrong no matter how much you try and teach them so that I guess is a positive to take that away at this age and the existing rule of no zones and no double teaming is good as well. I find that that style of defence just makes players lazy. Man to man and nothing else for this level. I do believe teaching help defence is a must though at all age levels.

The substitution revised rule also now makes sense. The change from 8 3 1/2 shifts to 10 3 min shifts is good as well, that's kind of a neutral change, it works better with the 4 x 4 set up.
If the extra space during a 4 on 4 game is only used by coaches to give room to their top players, then that is a coaching problem. The goal of the rule change is to allow ball movement and more touches, so coaches should be coaching their players to increase ball movement. If the only goal for kids at this age is to win then two things will happen. Many of these players will leave the sport before they get to the age that they can potentially play at a high level, and those that do stay in the sport won't develop to their full potential. Being result oriented at this age is very detrimental to youth and those kids that are competitive, most likely have learned to be as competitive as they are because of the adults in their life. If the highlight of a players basketball career is winning a provincial basketball championship at age 10, then there is a problem with the system. As far as going out of province, touch on the position a practice or two before going out of province. If your players know how to run a 4 player offense successfully, adding one "position" should be simple if you are running a motion. Grade 6/JV teams should focus more on a 5th position. Saying these kids won't be able to adjust from 4 on 4 to 5 on 5 is like saying that last year Peewee hockey players wouldn't able to adjust from a province that allowed checking to a province that didn't, but those kids managed. The goal of going out of province for the kids is to stay at a hotel and go swimming anyway. Is playing 5 on 5 really that big of a concern?

Playing 30 games during the mini season is still fewer games/week then 28 games during the JV season. The NBIAA asks teams to send in a form recording all games played. I assume something similar will happen to police mini.

Any complaint I have seen seems like and adult problem, but that not why we're here. At the end of the day, the kids just want to play, have fun, and learn some skills.
So by playing competitive in mini kids do not reach there full potential. If they are competitive it is there parents fault ? Grade 6 /jv should focus on a 5th player. Kids in grade 6 to 10 should be focusing on a fifth player. OK makes sense to me
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C-N '06-'09



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PostSubject: Re: Modified Mini Rules   Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:02 pm

ballnut wrote:
C-N '06-'09 wrote:
rivhoops wrote:
Well I've taken time to read and re-read all the comments posted on this thread and I do like some of the rule changes, but there are a few I just can get my head around to the fact that it will make things better as a whole.

First of all I do like the 4 on 4 rule, but not for Provincial "competitive teams". I think that it's the house leagues that should be concentrating on that as they are the ones that should be pushing for more touches for those kids. House leagues should be considered strictly Rec leagues. These are the kids for the most part that need the extra room on the floor to benefit. House leagues should be the primary stepping stone for fundamental developments and that is where they should keep all their focus on.

If you are playing or coaching Provincial ball, you are playing in a competitive league. So the main emphasis and expectations for players and coaches playing at this level would be to win, especially in tournament and provincial banner games, correct? Why else would you play and travel the province for basketball? Going to the 4 x 4 format at the provincial level will have more negative effects on the game then positive ones. First of all you open the floor up for the more skilled players on a prov team to drive more to the basket and play a more one on one style game now that there is more room to move. Plus they will still get the same amount of touches as before, if not more. If you think giving weaker less confident players more room on the court is helping them I think that it will prove to be a negative, the ball, no matter what, is going to end up landing in the hands of the most skilled player(s) on the floor at any given time.

Another issue to think about is that some of the 2nd year mini (grade 6) players will play on their middle school teams starting in January, how will the change from 4 x 4 to 5 x 5 effect them plus take into consideration those kids going back to the 4 x 4 format with their mini teams in time for age class provincials, what effects will this have on those players and how they play? Remember they're just 11 and 12 year kids old at best.

Another problem with the 4 x 4 rule is that PEI and NS are not on board as of yet(correct me if i'm wrong), so what do we do if we get invited to a tournament or games in those provinces as many teams do, especially the ones that are close to the borders? Plus how do we deal with those teams coming to NB to play us?

I like the game cap of 30 games in a season, it gives teams more time to focus on practicing, but how and who will police it properly? Who is responsible for accountability? High school JV teams are limited to a 28 game season, seams only natural that mini play less than that.

Most coaches will opt to take 10 players vs 11 or 12 now with the rule changes which will be interesting to see. Fair play rules are a logistical nightmare at best with 11 or 12 kids, the new format with a 10 player roster is optimal, plus if a team member is unable to make a game it may actually become an advantage for that squad.

No screens, well most kids at that age get it wrong no matter how much you try and teach them so that I guess is a positive to take that away at this age and the existing rule of no zones and no double teaming is good as well. I find that that style of defence just makes players lazy. Man to man and nothing else for this level. I do believe teaching help defence is a must though at all age levels.

The substitution revised rule also now makes sense. The change from 8 3 1/2 shifts to 10 3 min shifts is good as well, that's kind of a neutral change, it works better with the 4 x 4 set up.
If the extra space during a 4 on 4 game is only used by coaches to give room to their top players, then that is a coaching problem. The goal of the rule change is to allow ball movement and more touches, so coaches should be coaching their players to increase ball movement. If the only goal for kids at this age is to win then two things will happen. Many of these players will leave the sport before they get to the age that they can potentially play at a high level, and those that do stay in the sport won't develop to their full potential. Being result oriented at this age is very detrimental to youth and those kids that are competitive, most likely have learned to be as competitive as they are because of the adults in their life. If the highlight of a players basketball career is winning a provincial basketball championship at age 10, then there is a problem with the system. As far as going out of province, touch on the position a practice or two before going out of province. If your players know how to run a 4 player offense successfully, adding one "position" should be simple if you are running a motion. Grade 6/JV teams should focus more on a 5th position. Saying these kids won't be able to adjust from 4 on 4 to 5 on 5 is like saying that last year Peewee hockey players wouldn't able to adjust from a province that allowed checking to a province that didn't, but those kids managed. The goal of going out of province for the kids is to stay at a hotel and go swimming anyway. Is playing 5 on 5 really that big of a concern?

Playing 30 games during the mini season is still fewer games/week then 28 games during the JV season. The NBIAA asks teams to send in a form recording all games played. I assume something similar will happen to police mini.

Any complaint I have seen seems like and adult problem, but that not why we're here. At the end of the day, the kids just want to play, have fun, and learn some skills.
  So by playing competitive in mini  kids do not reach there full potential. If they are competitive it is there parents fault ? Grade 6 /jv should  focus on a 5th player. Kids in grade 6 to 10 should be focusing on a fifth player. OK makes sense to me
You've misunderstood most of what I said. By playing to win and only to win, the majority of players will not reach their full potential. A few will, other will quit the sport because they got tired committing so much time to the sport without getting to play.

Parents (if you would like you could say some adults, but usually those who have kids playing the sport) create the competitive atmosphere, not the kids. At this age there should be a greater focus on kids improving there own skills, not on a team strategy that will yield the most wins in a season. Competitive basketball is great for a lot of kids because it gives them the opportunity to have a higher commitment level and gives them a chance to play with and against stronger players. Challenging players, coaching them to succeed is all very beneficial, but doing so for a better team result at 11 years old is not. That doesn't just apply to basketball, but any sport (for the sake of not getting off topic, minus early specialization sports).

If all a coach focuses on is one thing an entire season then the team didn't learn very much. What I mean is with players already having a strong base of how to play a four man offense, when teaching an offense, grade 6 coaches, in a short season, would be able to primarily focus on adding that 5th position into a very basic offense. When playing 4 on 4 coaches basically will have the option of running a 4-out or 3-out 1-in offense. When switching to 5 on 5 players will either have to learn how to utilize/play the post or the slight change in rotation with 4 players on the perimeter. Did not mean to mention JV. By the time player are in grade 9 and have had 2-2.5 years playing 5 on 5 they should be used to playing 5 on 5. Without looking at the LTAD to verify, team concepts should be very little of the focus at the mini age group anyway.
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lebronrocks



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PostSubject: Re: Modified Mini Rules   Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:37 am

" basketball is the most overcoached and under taught sport in North America" Greg White
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ballnut



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PostSubject: Re: Modified Mini Rules   Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:04 am

C-N '06-'09 wrote:
ballnut wrote:
C-N '06-'09 wrote:
rivhoops wrote:
Well I've taken time to read and re-read all the comments posted on this thread and I do like some of the rule changes, but there are a few I just can get my head around to the fact that it will make things better as a whole.

First of all I do like the 4 on 4 rule, but not for Provincial "competitive teams". I think that it's the house leagues that should be concentrating on that as they are the ones that should be pushing for more touches for those kids. House leagues should be considered strictly Rec leagues. These are the kids for the most part that need the extra room on the floor to benefit. House leagues should be the primary stepping stone for fundamental developments and that is where they should keep all their focus on.

If you are playing or coaching Provincial ball, you are playing in a competitive league. So the main emphasis and expectations for players and coaches playing at this level would be to win, especially in tournament and provincial banner games, correct? Why else would you play and travel the province for basketball? Going to the 4 x 4 format at the provincial level will have more negative effects on the game then positive ones. First of all you open the floor up for the more skilled players on a prov team to drive more to the basket and play a more one on one style game now that there is more room to move. Plus they will still get the same amount of touches as before, if not more. If you think giving weaker less confident players more room on the court is helping them I think that it will prove to be a negative, the ball, no matter what, is going to end up landing in the hands of the most skilled player(s) on the floor at any given time.

Another issue to think about is that some of the 2nd year mini (grade 6) players will play on their middle school teams starting in January, how will the change from 4 x 4 to 5 x 5 effect them plus take into consideration those kids going back to the 4 x 4 format with their mini teams in time for age class provincials, what effects will this have on those players and how they play? Remember they're just 11 and 12 year kids old at best.

Another problem with the 4 x 4 rule is that PEI and NS are not on board as of yet(correct me if i'm wrong), so what do we do if we get invited to a tournament or games in those provinces as many teams do, especially the ones that are close to the borders? Plus how do we deal with those teams coming to NB to play us?

I like the game cap of 30 games in a season, it gives teams more time to focus on practicing, but how and who will police it properly? Who is responsible for accountability? High school JV teams are limited to a 28 game season, seams only natural that mini play less than that.

Most coaches will opt to take 10 players vs 11 or 12 now with the rule changes which will be interesting to see. Fair play rules are a logistical nightmare at best with 11 or 12 kids, the new format with a 10 player roster is optimal, plus if a team member is unable to make a game it may actually become an advantage for that squad.

No screens, well most kids at that age get it wrong no matter how much you try and teach them so that I guess is a positive to take that away at this age and the existing rule of no zones and no double teaming is good as well. I find that that style of defence just makes players lazy. Man to man and nothing else for this level. I do believe teaching help defence is a must though at all age levels.

The substitution revised rule also now makes sense. The change from 8 3 1/2 shifts to 10 3 min shifts is good as well, that's kind of a neutral change, it works better with the 4 x 4 set up.
If the extra space during a 4 on 4 game is only used by coaches to give room to their top players, then that is a coaching problem. The goal of the rule change is to allow ball movement and more touches, so coaches should be coaching their players to increase ball movement. If the only goal for kids at this age is to win then two things will happen. Many of these players will leave the sport before they get to the age that they can potentially play at a high level, and those that do stay in the sport won't develop to their full potential. Being result oriented at this age is very detrimental to youth and those kids that are competitive, most likely have learned to be as competitive as they are because of the adults in their life. If the highlight of a players basketball career is winning a provincial basketball championship at age 10, then there is a problem with the system. As far as going out of province, touch on the position a practice or two before going out of province. If your players know how to run a 4 player offense successfully, adding one "position" should be simple if you are running a motion. Grade 6/JV teams should focus more on a 5th position. Saying these kids won't be able to adjust from 4 on 4 to 5 on 5 is like saying that last year Peewee hockey players wouldn't able to adjust from a province that allowed checking to a province that didn't, but those kids managed. The goal of going out of province for the kids is to stay at a hotel and go swimming anyway. Is playing 5 on 5 really that big of a concern?

Playing 30 games during the mini season is still fewer games/week then 28 games during the JV season. The NBIAA asks teams to send in a form recording all games played. I assume something similar will happen to police mini.

Any complaint I have seen seems like and adult problem, but that not why we're here. At the end of the day, the kids just want to play, have fun, and learn some skills.
  So by playing competitive in mini  kids do not reach there full potential. If they are competitive it is there parents fault ? Grade 6 /jv should  focus on a 5th player. Kids in grade 6 to 10 should be focusing on a fifth player. OK makes sense to me
You've misunderstood most of what I said. By playing to win and only to win, the majority of players will not reach their full potential. A few will, other will quit the sport because they got tired committing so much time to the sport without getting to play.

Parents (if you would like you could say some adults, but usually those who have kids playing the sport) create the competitive atmosphere, not the kids. At this age there should be a greater focus on kids improving there own skills, not on a team strategy that will yield the most wins in a season. Competitive basketball is great for a lot of kids because it gives them the opportunity to have a higher commitment level and gives them a chance to play with and against stronger players. Challenging players, coaching them to succeed is all very beneficial, but doing so for a better team result at 11 years old is not. That doesn't just apply to basketball, but any sport (for the sake of not getting off topic, minus early specialization sports).

If all a coach focuses on is one thing an entire season then the team didn't learn very much. What I mean is with players already having a strong base of how to play a four man offense, when teaching an offense, grade 6 coaches, in a short season, would be able to primarily focus on adding that 5th position into a very basic offense. When playing 4 on 4 coaches basically will have the option of running a 4-out or 3-out 1-in offense. When switching to 5 on 5 players will either have to learn how to utilize/play the post or the slight change in rotation with 4 players on the perimeter. Did not mean to mention JV. By the time player are in grade 9 and have had 2-2.5 years playing 5 on 5 they should be used to playing 5 on 5. Without looking at the LTAD to verify, team concepts should be very little of the focus at the mini age group anyway.
I simply stated what you did in point form. No misunderstanding there. I can not speak for everybody else but my child played mini for 4 years and they were never able to play more than 1 more shift than anyone else. In some tournaments fair play was out the window. As for the competitive thing maybe for some that is true but not for all, the top shelf players have and always will be ultra competitive, they do not need to be pushed by there parents. If done properly I see this improving the middle of the pack kids greatly, and closing the gap to improve the pool. But to get to the next level at some point some of the parents have to take a vested interest in what there child is doing as well. In the mini level especially. The top of the food chain basketball players are there for a reason. They work hard at practice they work hard out of practice and most of them are all about winning and the real good ones know that 4 or 5 fingers are a lot stronger than one. There are way to many coaches at every level teaching way to much x and o crap there are many players who have no idea how to just play the game and a lot don't have the tools to do it. If done properly this formula should help this but this is a major IF as most of them are all about winning at every level. None of these changes are worth a damn if the rules are not enforced at all times, the refs really have to be on board for this to work as well.
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C-N '06-'09



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PostSubject: Re: Modified Mini Rules   Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:27 am

[quote="ballnut"]
C-N '06-'09 wrote:
ballnut wrote:
C-N '06-'09 wrote:
rivhoops wrote:
Well I've taken time to read and re-read all the comments posted on this thread and I do like some of the rule changes, but there are a few I just can get my head around to the fact that it will make things better as a whole.

First of all I do like the 4 on 4 rule, but not for Provincial "competitive teams". I think that it's the house leagues that should be concentrating on that as they are the ones that should be pushing for more touches for those kids. House leagues should be considered strictly Rec leagues. These are the kids for the most part that need the extra room on the floor to benefit. House leagues should be the primary stepping stone for fundamental developments and that is where they should keep all their focus on.

If you are playing or coaching Provincial ball, you are playing in a competitive league. So the main emphasis and expectations for players and coaches playing at this level would be to win, especially in tournament and provincial banner games, correct? Why else would you play and travel the province for basketball? Going to the 4 x 4 format at the provincial level will have more negative effects on the game then positive ones. First of all you open the floor up for the more skilled players on a prov team to drive more to the basket and play a more one on one style game now that there is more room to move. Plus they will still get the same amount of touches as before, if not more. If you think giving weaker less confident players more room on the court is helping them I think that it will prove to be a negative, the ball, no matter what, is going to end up landing in the hands of the most skilled player(s) on the floor at any given time.

Another issue to think about is that some of the 2nd year mini (grade 6) players will play on their middle school teams starting in January, how will the change from 4 x 4 to 5 x 5 effect them plus take into consideration those kids going back to the 4 x 4 format with their mini teams in time for age class provincials, what effects will this have on those players and how they play? Remember they're just 11 and 12 year kids old at best.

Another problem with the 4 x 4 rule is that PEI and NS are not on board as of yet(correct me if i'm wrong), so what do we do if we get invited to a tournament or games in those provinces as many teams do, especially the ones that are close to the borders? Plus how do we deal with those teams coming to NB to play us?

I like the game cap of 30 games in a season, it gives teams more time to focus on practicing, but how and who will police it properly? Who is responsible for accountability? High school JV teams are limited to a 28 game season, seams only natural that mini play less than that.

Most coaches will opt to take 10 players vs 11 or 12 now with the rule changes which will be interesting to see. Fair play rules are a logistical nightmare at best with 11 or 12 kids, the new format with a 10 player roster is optimal, plus if a team member is unable to make a game it may actually become an advantage for that squad.

No screens, well most kids at that age get it wrong no matter how much you try and teach them so that I guess is a positive to take that away at this age and the existing rule of no zones and no double teaming is good as well. I find that that style of defence just makes players lazy. Man to man and nothing else for this level. I do believe teaching help defence is a must though at all age levels.

The substitution revised rule also now makes sense. The change from 8 3 1/2 shifts to 10 3 min shifts is good as well, that's kind of a neutral change, it works better with the 4 x 4 set up.
If the extra space during a 4 on 4 game is only used by coaches to give room to their top players, then that is a coaching problem. The goal of the rule change is to allow ball movement and more touches, so coaches should be coaching their players to increase ball movement. If the only goal for kids at this age is to win then two things will happen. Many of these players will leave the sport before they get to the age that they can potentially play at a high level, and those that do stay in the sport won't develop to their full potential. Being result oriented at this age is very detrimental to youth and those kids that are competitive, most likely have learned to be as competitive as they are because of the adults in their life. If the highlight of a players basketball career is winning a provincial basketball championship at age 10, then there is a problem with the system. As far as going out of province, touch on the position a practice or two before going out of province. If your players know how to run a 4 player offense successfully, adding one "position" should be simple if you are running a motion. Grade 6/JV teams should focus more on a 5th position. Saying these kids won't be able to adjust from 4 on 4 to 5 on 5 is like saying that last year Peewee hockey players wouldn't able to adjust from a province that allowed checking to a province that didn't, but those kids managed. The goal of going out of province for the kids is to stay at a hotel and go swimming anyway. Is playing 5 on 5 really that big of a concern?

Playing 30 games during the mini season is still fewer games/week then 28 games during the JV season. The NBIAA asks teams to send in a form recording all games played. I assume something similar will happen to police mini.

Any complaint I have seen seems like and adult problem, but that not why we're here. At the end of the day, the kids just want to play, have fun, and learn some skills.
  So by playing competitive in mini  kids do not reach there full potential. If they are competitive it is there parents fault ? Grade 6 /jv should  focus on a 5th player. Kids in grade 6 to 10 should be focusing on a fifth player. OK makes sense to me
You've misunderstood most of what I said. By playing to win and only to win, the majority of players will not reach their full potential. A few will, other will quit the sport because they got tired committing so much time to the sport without getting to play.

Parents (if you would like you could say some adults, but usually those who have kids playing the sport) create the competitive atmosphere, not the kids. At this age there should be a greater focus on kids improving there own skills, not on a team strategy that will yield the most wins in a season. Competitive basketball is great for a lot of kids because it gives them the opportunity to have a higher commitment level and gives them a chance to play with and against stronger players. Challenging players, coaching them to succeed is all very beneficial, but doing so for a better team result at 11 years old is not. That doesn't just apply to basketball, but any sport (for the sake of not getting off topic, minus early specialization sports).

If all a coach focuses on is one thing an entire season then the team didn't learn very much. What I mean is with players already having a strong base of how to play a four man offense, when teaching an offense, grade 6 coaches, in a short season, would be able to primarily focus on adding that 5th position into a very basic offense. When playing 4 on 4 coaches basically will have the option of running a 4-out or 3-out 1-in offense. When switching to 5 on 5 players will either have to learn how to utilize/play the post or the slight change in rotation with 4 players on the perimeter. Did not mean to mention JV. By the time player are in grade 9 and have had 2-2.5 years playing 5 on 5 they should be used to playing 5 on 5. Without looking at the LTAD to verify, team concepts should be very little of the focus at the mini age group anyway.
 I simply stated what you did in point form. No misunderstanding there. I can not speak for everybody else but my child played mini for 4 years and they were never able to play more than 1 more shift than anyone else. In some tournaments fair play was out the window. As for the competitive thing maybe for some that is true but not for all, the top shelf players have and always will be ultra competitive, they do not need to be pushed by there parents. If done properly I see this improving the middle of the pack kids greatly, and closing the gap to improve the pool. But to get to the next level at some point some of the parents have to take a vested interest in what there child is doing as well. In the mini level especially. The top of the food chain basketball players are there for a reason. They work hard at practice they work hard out of practice and most of them are all about winning and the real good ones know that 4 or 5 fingers are a lot stronger than one. There are way to many coaches at every level teaching way to much x and o crap there are many players who have no idea how to just play the game and a lot don't have the tools to do it. If done properly this formula should help this but this is a major IF as most of them are all about winning at every level. None of these changes are worth a damn if the rules are not enforced at all times, the refs really have to be on board for this to work as well.  [/quote

I feel like with each post you are complaining with less and less about what I said. Also, you just said it is up to the adults for this to work properly. It will not work if the coach makes decisions based on what will get a TEAM of 10 and 11 the best RESULT for one particular season. Even if the kids are competitive, coaches need to focus on individual player development (which includes playing as a team). If the focus of the coach is winning a provincial championship, there is an issue. You cannot tell me there isn't a team out there relying on one player to score most of there point when it is their shift. When I say play to win, I mean the style of play a coach chooses for their team, not playing time. That equal playing time SHOULD be assumed at that age.
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rivhoops



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PostSubject: Re: Modified Mini Rules   Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:55 am

Maybe an idea is to get away from all the serious competitiveness at the Mini level and have coaches strictly concentrate on player and team development would be for BNB to eliminate the Mini age class tournament at the end of the season and look to have maybe a skills style day with a year end banquet. Also club teams, instead of hosting competitive tournaments they focus solely on exhibition games and round robin style tournaments that do not recognize an out right winner. Take the drive away from coaches and parents to focus solely on winning. You can still reward individuals for their efforts with "player of the game" and "hustler of the game" awards to encourage the kids to try hard.

This format would still encourage some level of competition for all involved, but would tend to focus mostly on fun and development at that age. Teams would still have to travel and the overnight hotel team experience would still be there.

Lets face it as well, if a mini age payer is that much better than the rest of his/her teammate peers, maybe that player(s) is ready to be promoted to the Bantam level.

This is a legitimate scenario right? Correct me if I'm wrong, I've got big shoulders and can handle a bit of criticism lol.
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ballnut



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PostSubject: Re: Modified Mini Rules   Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:34 pm

C-N '06-'09 wrote:
ballnut wrote:
C-N '06-'09 wrote:
ballnut wrote:
C-N '06-'09 wrote:
rivhoops wrote:
Well I've taken time to read and re-read all the comments posted on this thread and I do like some of the rule changes, but there are a few I just can get my head around to the fact that it will make things better as a whole.

First of all I do like the 4 on 4 rule, but not for Provincial "competitive teams". I think that it's the house leagues that should be concentrating on that as they are the ones that should be pushing for more touches for those kids. House leagues should be considered strictly Rec leagues. These are the kids for the most part that need the extra room on the floor to benefit. House leagues should be the primary stepping stone for fundamental developments and that is where they should keep all their focus on.

If you are playing or coaching Provincial ball, you are playing in a competitive league. So the main emphasis and expectations for players and coaches playing at this level would be to win, especially in tournament and provincial banner games, correct? Why else would you play and travel the province for basketball? Going to the 4 x 4 format at the provincial level will have more negative effects on the game then positive ones. First of all you open the floor up for the more skilled players on a prov team to drive more to the basket and play a more one on one style game now that there is more room to move. Plus they will still get the same amount of touches as before, if not more. If you think giving weaker less confident players more room on the court is helping them I think that it will prove to be a negative, the ball, no matter what, is going to end up landing in the hands of the most skilled player(s) on the floor at any given time.

Another issue to think about is that some of the 2nd year mini (grade 6) players will play on their middle school teams starting in January, how will the change from 4 x 4 to 5 x 5 effect them plus take into consideration those kids going back to the 4 x 4 format with their mini teams in time for age class provincials, what effects will this have on those players and how they play? Remember they're just 11 and 12 year kids old at best.

Another problem with the 4 x 4 rule is that PEI and NS are not on board as of yet(correct me if i'm wrong), so what do we do if we get invited to a tournament or games in those provinces as many teams do, especially the ones that are close to the borders? Plus how do we deal with those teams coming to NB to play us?

I like the game cap of 30 games in a season, it gives teams more time to focus on practicing, but how and who will police it properly? Who is responsible for accountability? High school JV teams are limited to a 28 game season, seams only natural that mini play less than that.

Most coaches will opt to take 10 players vs 11 or 12 now with the rule changes which will be interesting to see. Fair play rules are a logistical nightmare at best with 11 or 12 kids, the new format with a 10 player roster is optimal, plus if a team member is unable to make a game it may actually become an advantage for that squad.

No screens, well most kids at that age get it wrong no matter how much you try and teach them so that I guess is a positive to take that away at this age and the existing rule of no zones and no double teaming is good as well. I find that that style of defence just makes players lazy. Man to man and nothing else for this level. I do believe teaching help defence is a must though at all age levels.

The substitution revised rule also now makes sense. The change from 8 3 1/2 shifts to 10 3 min shifts is good as well, that's kind of a neutral change, it works better with the 4 x 4 set up.
If the extra space during a 4 on 4 game is only used by coaches to give room to their top players, then that is a coaching problem. The goal of the rule change is to allow ball movement and more touches, so coaches should be coaching their players to increase ball movement. If the only goal for kids at this age is to win then two things will happen. Many of these players will leave the sport before they get to the age that they can potentially play at a high level, and those that do stay in the sport won't develop to their full potential. Being result oriented at this age is very detrimental to youth and those kids that are competitive, most likely have learned to be as competitive as they are because of the adults in their life. If the highlight of a players basketball career is winning a provincial basketball championship at age 10, then there is a problem with the system. As far as going out of province, touch on the position a practice or two before going out of province. If your players know how to run a 4 player offense successfully, adding one "position" should be simple if you are running a motion. Grade 6/JV teams should focus more on a 5th position. Saying these kids won't be able to adjust from 4 on 4 to 5 on 5 is like saying that last year Peewee hockey players wouldn't able to adjust from a province that allowed checking to a province that didn't, but those kids managed. The goal of going out of province for the kids is to stay at a hotel and go swimming anyway. Is playing 5 on 5 really that big of a concern?

Playing 30 games during the mini season is still fewer games/week then 28 games during the JV season. The NBIAA asks teams to send in a form recording all games played. I assume something similar will happen to police mini.

Any complaint I have seen seems like and adult problem, but that not why we're here. At the end of the day, the kids just want to play, have fun, and learn some skills.
  So by playing competitive in mini  kids do not reach there full potential. If they are competitive it is there parents fault ? Grade 6 /jv should  focus on a 5th player. Kids in grade 6 to 10 should be focusing on a fifth player. OK makes sense to me
You've misunderstood most of what I said. By playing to win and only to win, the majority of players will not reach their full potential. A few will, other will quit the sport because they got tired committing so much time to the sport without getting to play.

Parents (if you would like you could say some adults, but usually those who have kids playing the sport) create the competitive atmosphere, not the kids. At this age there should be a greater focus on kids improving there own skills, not on a team strategy that will yield the most wins in a season. Competitive basketball is great for a lot of kids because it gives them the opportunity to have a higher commitment level and gives them a chance to play with and against stronger players. Challenging players, coaching them to succeed is all very beneficial, but doing so for a better team result at 11 years old is not. That doesn't just apply to basketball, but any sport (for the sake of not getting off topic, minus early specialization sports).

If all a coach focuses on is one thing an entire season then the team didn't learn very much. What I mean is with players already having a strong base of how to play a four man offense, when teaching an offense, grade 6 coaches, in a short season, would be able to primarily focus on adding that 5th position into a very basic offense. When playing 4 on 4 coaches basically will have the option of running a 4-out or 3-out 1-in offense. When switching to 5 on 5 players will either have to learn how to utilize/play the post or the slight change in rotation with 4 players on the perimeter. Did not mean to mention JV. By the time player are in grade 9 and have had 2-2.5 years playing 5 on 5 they should be used to playing 5 on 5. Without looking at the LTAD to verify, team concepts should be very little of the focus at the mini age group anyway.
 I simply stated what you did in point form. No misunderstanding there. I can not speak for everybody else but my child played mini for 4 years and they were never able to play more than 1 more shift than anyone else. In some tournaments fair play was out the window. As for the competitive thing maybe for some that is true but not for all, the top shelf players have and always will be ultra competitive, they do not need to be pushed by there parents. If done properly I see this improving the middle of the pack kids greatly, and closing the gap to improve the pool. But to get to the next level at some point some of the parents have to take a vested interest in what there child is doing as well. In the mini level especially. The top of the food chain basketball players are there for a reason. They work hard at practice they work hard out of practice and most of them are all about winning and the real good ones know that 4 or 5 fingers are a lot stronger than one. There are way to many coaches at every level teaching way to much x and o crap there are many players who have no idea how to just play the game and a lot don't have the tools to do it. If done properly this formula should help this but this is a major IF as most of them are all about winning at every level. None of these changes are worth a damn if the rules are not enforced at all times, the refs really have to be on board for this to work as well.  [/quote

I feel like with each post you are complaining with less and less about what I said. Also, you just said it is up to the adults for this to work properly. It will not work if the coach makes decisions based on what will get a TEAM of 10 and 11 the best RESULT for one particular season. Even if the kids are competitive, coaches need to focus on individual player development (which includes playing as a team). If the focus of the coach is winning a provincial championship, there is an issue. You cannot tell me there isn't a team out there relying on one player to score most of there point when it is their shift. When I say play to win, I mean the style of play a coach chooses for their team, not playing time. That equal playing time SHOULD be assumed at that age.
I already stated what I thought no use beating a dead horse. I stated what I thought, and if by adults you mean coaches and refs absolutely you are right. All I said about parents was that maybe they needed to pay a little better attention to what there child was doing and understand if they are going to scream and tell there kid to go go go. No you are right, I cant tell you there isn't a team out there looking for 1 guy to score and that includes just about any team in the world at any level, if that isn't supposed to be part of the game, take the score completely away, turn all of mini into a non competitive house league with options to travel and don't even turn the score board on. Like rivhoops said it may be the solution to getting coaches to stop coaching to win. Then everyone can develop at the same pace
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PostSubject: Re: Modified Mini Rules   Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:00 pm

O.K just so I am straight on a few things .
1. We want coaches to all go train so we are teaching the proper thing. check
2. Coach skill only never to win a game. check
3. Equal time for everyone regardless of skill or work ethic. check
4. Do not keep score or have final games in tournaments . check

For those old enough to remember this sounds like the old gold silver bronze badges we use to get in school for athletic testing. As we know that all changed when a lady, lets just call her big moma ,got upset when her son little johnny eats a lot got a bronze and the skinny kid down the road got a gold. So while waiting for the 11 pizza pockets to cook in the microwave she called the local paper,mla,prime minister and the pastor and screamed this is not fair. Then hockey new Brunswick and some local minor hockey associations decided that the esso metals of achievement were not fair because there was only 3 to give out and little Billy wide butt got upset because he never got one and after he downed his 4 cheese burgers and strawberry milkshake he went crying to Daddy fair play and that was the end of that.
The last time I checked the good coaches could teach skill and winning both and the bad ones could not do either one.
Do not get me wrong . I believe we should be coaching skill first at a young age. Also I believe in fair play but my definition of fair play differs from most on here. If you come to all practices and work as hard as the other team mates regardless of your skill advancement you play !! If you come to every other practice and do not try hard then you do not play as much as the others.
Not sure exactly what we are teaching our youth ?? It sure is not the real world !!!
At a young age what I think needs to be taught , in order : Fun , team , skill , work ethic and a touch of dare I say .. I will whisper .. winning .
Sure glad I do not coach anymore . How would you make cuts ??? got 19 trying out what will I base my decision on .. skill hmmm no gona teach that ..body type hmmmmm.. no that is not fair ....work ethic hmmmmm no that does not matter ........O what the hell I will keep all 19 and everyone can play 6 minutes ...where not going to keep score and there will be no winner anyways cause God forbid we actually try to win a game ... what was I thinking ..that's so yesterday !!!

Go ahead tear me a new one .


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Red Auerbach



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PostSubject: Re: Modified Mini Rules   Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:27 pm

Following much study and research by pretty smart basketball people, the rule changes are being made to allow players to better develop skills at younger ages. These players will therefore be better prepared to compete locally, provincially, nationally, and ultimately, internationally when the come of age. BNB and CB are not interested in players holding hands around the campfire singing kumbaya. Of course they want young players to compete. However, they don't want competition to be the main driver in the early stages when development is far more important.

Obviously coaches and players need to buy in for this to work. The players will follow our lead. BNB is doing a great job working with the associations in getting the word out and Neil has a new curriculum document covering all ages any coach can receive by PDF if interested.

Equally, or perhaps more importantly, officials need to be on board. In recent years, rule changes introduced in this province were inconsistently enforced by officials in games. No zone and double teaming rules were called by some and not at all by others. I remember having a conversation with a referee friend who said he didn't make the zone call in middle school because he thinks the rule is stupid and kids should learn how to break the zone at a young age. This is a senior referee who would do dozens of games per year.

Human nature being what it is, coaches, players, fans are going to want to see a win if there is a scoreboard and trophies. Officials need to play a bigger role in being responsible for the games being called according to the rules set by BNB. After all, they are the only ones in the gym being paid.
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ballnut



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PostSubject: Re: Modified Mini Rules   Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:57 pm

Mr.AA how dare you talk like that we now live in an age where that is considered politically not correct even though you are 100 percent correct.
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PostSubject: Re: Modified Mini Rules   Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:17 pm

I agree with what Neil is doing as far as the 4 on 4 and skill development and just am not sold completely on the equal time unless it is earned. If you give children equal time without effort I just do not think they learn a very important lesson . And my opinion has nothing to do with winning or losing !!!
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C-N '06-'09



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PostSubject: Re: Modified Mini Rules   Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:52 pm

I am willing to bet that "fair play" would not have turned into equal playing time had it not been for those coaches who only cared about the W. It would be great if players were only rewarded by their work-ethic, attendance, etc. (as long as coaches take the time to try to figure out why an athlete is not living up to expectations). One thing I have done in the past is reward the 5 hardest workers in a game by putting them on the floor for the last shift. You could reward hard work in practice by having players start. This can still be done if players can have a two shift spread and I am sure there are lots of other things coaches can think of. Talking to a 10 or 11 year old will probably do a lot more then just benching them. If talking to the player has had no affect, the right thing wasn't said. I personally find the challenge of getting players to exert their full effort every time they step on the court to be the best part of coaching.

I am sure some of you will read this and think I am crazy, but the word win should not be used at this age (or in my opinion any time). Winning is a result that does not determine whether or not a team played to their potential on a particular day. At the end of a game it is important for a coach to talk to his/her players about how well they played, not about how they compared to their opponent.
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Coach.Red



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PostSubject: Re: Modified Mini Rules   Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:39 pm

C-N '06-'09 wrote:
I am willing to bet that "fair play" would not have turned into equal playing time had it not been for those coaches who only cared about the W. It would be great if players were only rewarded by their work-ethic, attendance, etc. (as long as coaches take the time to try to figure out why an athlete is not living up to expectations). One thing I have done in the past is reward the 5 hardest workers in a game by putting them on the floor for the last shift. You could reward hard work in practice by having players start. This can still be done if players can have a two shift spread and I am sure there are lots of other things coaches can think of. Talking to a 10 or 11 year old will probably do a lot more then just benching them. If talking to the player has had no affect, the right thing wasn't said. I personally find the challenge of getting players to exert their full effort every time they step on the court to be the best part of coaching.

I am sure some of you will read this and think I am crazy, but the word win should not be used at this age (or in my opinion any time). Winning is a result that does not determine whether or not a team played to their potential on a particular day. At the end of a game it is important for a coach to talk to his/her players about how well they played, not about how they compared to their opponent.
I'm not going to chime in on much here as I quite enjoy the new rules being a mini coach myself.

But "fair play" doesn't mean fair play all season. If I have a player who A) doesn't give an ounce of effort in practice, B) Interrupts my practice or C) misses practice without a good cause, he's not playing. I can bench a player for discipline.

Now here comes the grey area. If I bench my "worst" player, will the other coach believe me or think I'm benching him to win? Will coaches bench their worst player simply to have a better shot a winning? If yes, then we have problems bigger than these new rules.
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PostSubject: Re: Modified Mini Rules   Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:21 am

So my season has started like everyone else.

So far we haven't had any issues with the new rules except one.

I found out some coaches aren't following the new sub rules. I've heard of instances where one player plays 2 shifts and another plays 5. Even worse, one player plays 1 shift and another plays 6.
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