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 New Tier For Senior AAA

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baller1000



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PostSubject: New Tier For Senior AAA   Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:24 pm

Mr Ebehardt,

Can you enlighten this board about the new tier for AAA basketball that you plan to propose at the AGM of the BC Basketball Association?
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MadHatter



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:45 am

Why not wait until the proposal?
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baller1000



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:21 am

What are you hiding?

Put it out there for everyone to see, so they can see what you are up to and get their comments on what it will do to basketball.

Give us your reasons and back them up with facts.

People are tired of backroom politics and agendas. So get it out there.
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MadHatter



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:16 am

Interesting call out, does it deserve the public forum or an audience of a more formal channel?
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baller1000



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:28 am

Duh?

Backroom politics. Private agendas.

The public needs to see whats up. That is the purpose of the call out. Taking it formal or private just puts it back out of public view.

I am betting Ebes to afraid to come out and tell everyone what he is up to now. Better to keep it behind closed doors where he and a few other coaches can proceed to dismantle AAA baskteball.
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MadHatter



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:35 am

Fair enough, preach on. Made a convert out of me. What diabolical dealings are going one?
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coachb



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:18 pm

Wow diabolical dealings indeed, dismantle AAA basketball? Face facts there are a majority of coaches out there who are fed up with all the "transfers" and "recruits" my limited understanding is that the proposal, to simplify it, creates 2 AAA basketball championships one for the recruiters/tranfer type schools and one for the rest. Creating in effect 4 tiers: A, AA, AAA and AAA 1 or whatever you want to call it.
Hardly seems diabolical or evil. Seems more like saying hey if you want to recruit, you want to pay athlete's tuition, you want your son to attend this school with this coach and these players, knock yourself out, now go and play with the rest of the schools in the same situation. The rest, well they will go play against other schools who plays with whoever walks in the door each year.
One thing you might see with the new format is different schools from different areas rise to the top not the same old schools who recruit/transfer/pay/take to the cabin year after year. You actually might start to notice some coaching skills rather than recruiting skills in a different format. And possibly more students in more schools will benefit and enjoy their high school basketball experience even more. Just a thought.
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MadHatter



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:01 pm

I like your idea CoachB, I will call it yours for now, because right now to me it is nothing more than he said/he said. My "diabolical" comment had tongue planted firmly in cheek. I think an "open class/AAA+" championship would be great if it could work, but just how many schools are going to want to sign up for it? To me it sounds like having a AAAA title, to go w/ AAA, AA, A. But as I said, how many schools would be for that beyond a handful? Or am I completely naive? Maybe teams will clamor for a chance to join such an open format.

As a fan, I am curious as to what level of basketball would be played in such a league. Would any BC school be remotely close to the form and degree of recruiting that happens in the US prep scene?
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burnaby



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:10 pm

Interesting. I'm all for it.

I wonder if it will be a cap on out of catchment players or on transfers?
Is it okay to have 1? 2? 3?

What about the programs that attract/recruit club players from gr 7 to go to their school? This happens a lot and they're not transfers.
They're out of catchment but will attend from day 1 of grade 8.

What about the kids that transfer immediately after gr 8?

Sets up interesting decisions.
A potential starter transfers to your school because he wants to take a special program, but if he's on the team you now have to play in the out of catchment division.
Do you cut him so you can play in the in catchment division?
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ebe



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:41 pm

Baller 1000 take a deep breath and relax. I always do my best to provide information and answer questions on this forum but I do have other responsibilities, including dealing with the mess that is happening at the grade 9 Provincials right now, so I am sorry I was not able to respond to you inquiry sooner. There are several motions going forward to our association this year including both rule and constitiutional changes. There is no effort on my or anyones part to keep this hidden, it is not some backroom deal, or some effort to dismantle anything. All schools have been given notice of the various motions so it is a completely open process. The proposal you are referring to is not mine it has originated from coaches in the Valley and I have provided my feedback on it. It is a fairly detailed and lengthly proposal but I will do my best to summarize the main points. This proposal is asking the membership to consider adding another tier within the AAA tier, we can call it AAA II if you want. This tier would add another opportunity for teams to finish their season with a competitive tournament. In no way is this tournament wanting to take over or replace the existing AAA tournament at the Agrodome as this tournament is a first class event with an amazing tradition and history. The proposed AAA II tournament would be for those schools who choose to play in it with berths being allocated on a similar basis as they are now. The only new criteria for this tournament would be schools must have 2 or less transfer players on their roster. A transfer player would be defined as one who was not at your school in grade 8 (grade 9 for those schools that start at grade 9 and grade 10 for those schools that start in grade 10). Many coaches believe that within the present AAA tier a substantial competitive gap is now in place and in general the schools with more transfers have a decided advantage. The AAA II tournament would try to create a different year end tournament for those schools who meet the criteria and choose to take part in it. The overall goal seems to be an effort to allow more kids to have a competitive post season experience which I think most people would agree is a good thing. If anyone would like to see the proposal in its full form please feel free to e-mail me and I will send it you.

Ebe

Paul Eberhardt
coachebe@shaw.ca
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MadHatter



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:46 pm

And that is the straight dope right there.
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coachb



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:03 pm

Thanks Ebe. Just a thought but even 2 transfers can significantly change a teams make up, one would be better, but sounds like the motion is drafted.
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Smitty



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:25 pm

It seems that someone has addressed the elephant in the room. Tranfers are an issue and although you can't ever prove that a school overtly recruits some do reach out through parents and prominent members of that school's community. It is quite simple, a member of a school talks to the parents of a kid who that school would like to have play for them and extolls the virtues of that school: Coaching exposure and a chance to win. Some go for it some don't but you can never trace the "reach out" back to the school. Is Coutts a great coach or very good at attracting good players to his school. If VC's coaching was as good as their, well, let's call it their ability to attract good players they would have surely managed to win the big dance by now. this new idea is worth a look and may expose some coaches as better recruiters than coaches. I'd like to see Disbrow work with a team that wasn't stacked to see what he could do. A lot of coaches work with whoever walks through the door at tryouts as you say and some work with who were invited. I take option 1 every time
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burnaby



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:16 am

I think it's a great idea.
So a team cannot play in both provincials?
Would they occur at the same time?

Tough decision for a coach:

If I add this new guy, a top five player, onto my team (who transfered because he legitimately moved) I'll have to play in the transfer division which is far too competitive for my team.
The transfer players are in effect trying out for 2 transfer spots.
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burnaby



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:23 am

I don't have a problem with a kid deciding that the program at his school is a non-competitive one and that he takes the game so seriously that he transfers to another school.

The new division makes it possible for this kid to go talk directly to coaches about their programs and not have to hide his intentions. The coaches don't have to hide it either although they should let the other school know about it.

If a school has a great math, animation, band or French program and a kid wants to be a part of it he should be able to go.
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ball91



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:41 am

The definition that they are giving of a recruit is ridiculous. There are lots of kids that move into a new area and are forced to go to a new school whether they like it or not. Also for private schools, this is unfair; lots of kids are moved to private schools by there parents in the later grades to put them in a better position for university/college. Its bad enough that they have to sit out a year as a transfer, but now even when they do get to play there team is being denied access to this tournament, that is unfair. Kids move areas a lot and this could effect both public and private schools. Having gone to a private school, i know a lot of kids who came into the school after grade 8; they should be allowed just as much access to tournaments as other kids.
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coachb



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:53 am

Ball 91 posts illustrates the point completely and perhaps high lights the issue more than anything. Private schools, no one is saying don't send you child to a private school, you can, however don't expect that private school to be able to compete in the AAA 2 tournament. Weird that already posts are saying but I want both worlds.
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ball91



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:37 am

well thats not fair
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baller1000



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Sat Mar 13, 2010 3:06 pm

would anyone like to take a stab at identifying who will and who will not be, in the new division?

I wonder how many teams there really are that will have less than two transfer between grade 8 and 12 that might play or want to play basketball.

Also, could Ebe, please clarify if teams all teams would still play AAA and then play in the new tier only after they have not qualified for the current AAA tournament?
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baller1000



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:28 pm

Geez....awfully quiet on this.

Has no one got ideas on who may declare for this new tier and how basketball will look in BC?

Would be nice to get some more answers about how this is really going to work. Ebe???

Where will this leave kids stuck in poor programs?

I think we are fooling ourselves that schools with poor programs are suddenly going to grow wings when players are forced to stay.
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airmax1



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:50 pm

Well....many states have public school and catholic/private school championships. This motion MIGHT be a good idea if it is following the same principles. I'm not privy to that info so I don't know. But if it is 1. It gives students and parents a choice. 2. It addresses the recruitment issue. 3. It also deals with the uneven playing field between certain schools and average schools for provincial championships, leaving open a teams choice for exhibition and tournament schedule.

And for the record, I've been coaching for some time and have NEVER experienced any recruitment from Tag and VC. I notice there has been some negative comments on this forum about him.

On the other hand I have experienced some very unethical recruitment by St Georges. Not only does it hurt a level playing field, but it must be very distasteful for someone like Emerson, Melvyn M, Bol Kong etc to not only take your playing time on your own team, but to add to that have your school pay their tuition while your parents have to pay for yours. And well Scott Allen at WRCA...no need to elaborate.
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baller1000



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:42 am

airmax1 wrote:
Well....many states have public school and catholic/private school championships. This motion MIGHT be a good idea if it is following the same principles. I'm not privy to that info so I don't know. But if it is 1. It gives students and parents a choice. 2. It addresses the recruitment issue. 3. It also deals with the uneven playing field between certain schools and average schools for provincial championships, leaving open a teams choice for exhibition and tournament schedule.

And for the record, I've been coaching for some time and have NEVER experienced any recruitment from Tag and VC. I notice there has been some negative comments on this forum about him.

On the other hand I have experienced some very unethical recruitment by St Georges. Not only does it hurt a level playing field, but it must be very distasteful for someone like Emerson, Melvyn M, Bol Kong etc to not only take your playing time on your own team, but to add to that have your school pay their tuition while your parents have to pay for yours. And well Scott Allen at WRCA...no need to elaborate.

I think that where this exists in the states there are a lot more schools that compete in the Catholic / private system. There are only a couple that are competitive at basketball in BC.

Rather than dismantle the whole system that has worked for years in BC, would it not be better to just deal with recruiting or transfer issues at the school(s) where there is a problem? There are rules to deal with that.

I am surprised there are few comments or ideas here, what this might look like. Bashing schools and coaches does seem to be more popular. scratch
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stocktonsshorts



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:19 pm

I think that what this new proposal is attempting to address is the competitive imbalance that currently exists at the AAA level.

Do parents have the right to choose what's best for their kids? Of course they do.
Do kids have the right to go to any school they want? Of course they do.

I'll put schools in 3 categories:

1. Private schools = independant schools with no defined catchment area
2. Magnet schools = public schools with a defined catchment area that attract/encourage/allow/bring in students from outside their boundaries.
3. Catchment schools = public schools made up of kids almost exclusivley from their neighbourhood.

It is undeniable that the schools in the first 2 categories have a huge advantage over the schools in the 3rd category. You only need look at the results from the provincial championships over the last decade to see which teams have the best chance of winning. This makes sense.... if every catchment had its share of athletes, some years would be better than others. Of course coaching, and program support would play a role, but the reality is the better the players, the better the team.

Private schools rely on students from all over because that is how they maintain their school population... they don't have a catchment area to rely on. Some public schools are active in promoting their programs either through coaches, alumni, administration, or most often other players to bring in students from other areas...this helps them compete. The schools in the 3rd category might not have out of catchment players for a variety of reasons... maybe the school is full, maybe the program is not attractive to other kids or their parents, maybe the coaches at that school would rather work the kids they have had since day 1. The point is is doesn't really matter how they show up, or when they show up, if your school has students from many areas rather than just one, you have an advantage. This is not debatable.

I'm not here to bash private or magnet schools...there are probably many reasons, outside of sports, why parents want their kids to go to a certain school, because let's face it none of these kids are going to make a living playing ball. The message right now for kids is this: If you want a chance to win, go to a school with other good players. Some people in the basketball community want to address this.

This new proposal is an attempt to provide more opportunity not limit it. This proposal does not affect private schools in any way, they can still compete for the same championship at the same venue that they currently do... it's business as usual. What this does allow are the neighbourhood schools to compete against other schools with similar school populations and similar boundaries. This propsal is also an attempt to salvage high school basketball as we know it... the other option would be to open up boundaries and transfers. This would lead to a club type championship... Yale = abby/mission, Kitsilano = vancouver, Pitt meadows = North Fraser, WRCA = delta/surrey/langley etc... you get the idea. I think that most people on these forums enjoy high school sports and what they have to offer. I would also like to believe that private schools and magnet schools would be supportive of this as it will increase the competetiveness within their current divisions... less lopsided beatings dished out to other schools.

In the proposal they talk about a new tier being added every decade or so, originally just one tier, AA added in the 70's, AAA added in the eighties. The landscape has changed and we need to change with it. I hope the new proposal goes through, I think it a positive step forward for many kids in this province. Sorry I don't see lot of negatives with it.
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coachb



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:14 pm

Stocktonshorst well stated.
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Underdog2010



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:46 pm

Excellent post stocktonsshorts! I think most would agree that something should be done to address the competitive imbalance that currently exists in AAA basketball, but the devil is in the details.

I would prefer to call the new level AAAA and that it be understood this is the level for those schools that want to compete at the highest competitive level regardless of the number of senior boys in grade 11 and 12. This should include some of the Private schools, all the Magnet schools and any other school with less than the maximum number of transfers that wants to opt in.

One problem is the determination of which Private schools would have to compete at this AAAA level, because most years the only real concern is with 3 schools - St. George's, Vancouver College and White Rock Christian (an "A" sized school). It wouldn't make sense (and I am not suggesting it is being proposed because I do not know) that all those small and "weak" private schools at the A and AA level or some that want to or have to compete at the AAA level (for example, Collingwood in West Vancouver or St. Thomas More) be forced to compete at the AAAA level. I don't see much difference between the Private powerhouses and the Public Magnet powerhouses, and if winning the AAA Provincials is one yard stick, the Privates have not been dominating. But there is a huge competitive disparity between many AAA public schools with the best programs and most of the private schools. Forcing too many private schools to play AAAA would not be fair and have nothing to do with addressing the current competive inbalance in AAA.

One problem I see is how much more complicated the transfer situation will become. Most student athletes and their parents do not understand the current BC School Sports rules, but this could become a nightmare for them with this new proposal. The student athletes should come first and this proposal should not have the side effect of actually limiting opportunties for some of them at the discretion of other persons. Maybe schools should be required to publicly declare if they will play AAAA or AAA for the next season say by March 30th (and then the only other schools that would be forced to compete at the AAAA level would be those that received transfers after that date that put them over the limit). One reason for the declaration is that those students considering transferring could know with certainty which schools would definitely be playing AAAA for at least the next season.

Also, maybe the current rules for transferring should be loosened up at the same time. Keep the current rules for the A, AA, AAA and AAAA levels and because it may not be known with certainty what level the receiving school will play in the future, continue to force all transfers after the start of Grade 10 to apply for an excemption under the current rules. If this what could be called say "standard" appeal is approved, that student would be immediately eligible to play (as is the case now) in all restricted and unrestricted competition no matter what level the receiving school has declared or actually plays now or in the future. However, students transferring to and from an AAAA school and an A, AA or AAA school, maybe should be allowed to freely transfer before the start of their Grade 11 year (or maybe even before the start of their Grade 12 year) as long as they make an additional what could be called an "AAAA" appeal. Those transfers to and from an AAAA school that only qualify for an "AAAA" appeal (and are not approved by the "standard" appeal) should immediately be eligible to play in all unrestricted and restricted (league and playoffs) competition (not be ineligible from restricted competition for 12 months from the date of transfer as is the current case). However, if a student only qualifies for an "AAAA" appeal, and plays in any restricted or unrestricted competition at the AAAA level, he will be ineligible to play in any restricted competition at the A, AA or AAA levels in the future. Such loosening of the transfer rules would allow serious, talented basketball players to have more time and options to make the decision to transfer to an AAAA school, when there may be more certainty that this is the level the receiving school will be playing for the next season or two. I don't think we need to be too concerned how this will effect the competitive balance between AAAA schools. At the same time, this will allow more freedom for less serious and talented players, who are likely to be adversely affected by the transfers into their AAAA school, to move to a school at the A, AA or AAA level where they will have a chance to make the team and actually get some playing time. Transfers from an AAAA school to an AAA school should not be considered to be transfers for the purposes of determining the limit on the number of transfer students the AAA school has in order to be eligible to compete for an AAA Championship.

How this proposal will impact the structure and compostion of existing City and regional leagues and zone playoffs will be interesting and I'm sure it will generate much debate. I have no idea what they would do on the Island, in the Okanagan or up North. In the Fraser Valley and Lower Mainland (including the North Shore / Howe Sound), I can see premier / AAAA divisions or leagues forming. That would really help address the current competitive inbalance in league play. Neither the winners nor losers have any desire to play those games where it is known beforehand how lopsided the score will be. For the players and coaches of the weak teams, it is misery and demoralizing. The powerhouse teams would rather play more exhibition games against better teams. One thing that should happen is the abandonment of the Independent league as there would be no good reason to keep these 3 Privates (or at least VC and St. George's) out of some type of bigger AAAA league or division. If St. Thomas More does not want to play AAAA, maybe the Burnaby/ New West Public School League can be gracious and let them in.
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