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 New Tier For Senior AAA

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baller1000



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:56 pm

Some excellent posts!

A couple of questions - points.

The issue of no boundaries for private schools seems like a red herring. Public schools have no boundaries either. Both public and private schools are only limited by the total class population they can accommodate.

In the final analysis, if we take away all the other possible reasons an athlete might move; they are moving for a better program. Those programs exist both in the public and private system and we all know who they are.

However, consider that when families make this choice, they have to pay for it when they choose the private route. As such, there is an even greater barrier to moving to a private "powerhouse" compared to moving to a public one. That is, of course, unless the athlete gets free tuition. That is against the rules we have now, so why not deal with that there rather than create a new tier which could become very difficult to manage in the scenarios described above.
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stocktonsshorts



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:14 pm

[quote="Underdog2010

I would prefer to call the new level AAAA and that it be understood this is the level for those schools that want to compete at the highest competitive level regardless of the number of senior boys in grade 11 and 12. This should include some of the Private schools, all the Magnet schools and any other school with less than the maximum number of transfers that wants to opt in.

Very detailed and lengthy response... I lost you a little with all the transfer stuff.

I think you have misread the new proposal. It is not designed for the private or public "magnet" schools. They have the programs in place that work for them under the current AAA system. This new tier would be for AAA size schools who do not have out of catchment players. This new tier is designed to give these schools a more competetive environment and opportunity to grow, and compete against more schools like them.

Surely you can see the benefit of this type of structure as it takes nothing away from the current AAA tournament, it's participants or the contenders.
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OldSchool



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:33 am

Interesting comments. If you think AAA is bad, check out the A championships. 9 of the top 10 teams are private schools. Talk about an uneven playing field. Perhaps those that want to "fix" basketball should look at the big picture. When you have been around long enough, you see teams win because of transfers and coaching. (Sometimes both) The problem in our public school system is that coaches cannot be hired based on their coaching. In the private school system, that is not the case. How do you expect public schools to compete with private school? Most States down south have a private school championship. Size does not matter. WRCA proves that every year. If the smaller private schools do not want to play with the big boys, they can tier the private school system. Now back to the public system. Their are rules in place that nobody follows. If you are denied a transfer, the rich can move. Its the poor slobs that have to follow the rules. In the past parents just rented an apartment for a few months, get eligible and move back. Happens all the time. Lots of players seem to follow their Basketball BC regional and provincial coach. If there is a history of this maybe basketball BC should be more selective or sensitive to the issue. Go to a CP or RTC session and listen to the parents magnetize each other. When you talk about kids that transfer, we always assume it is to chase the cup or get a scholarship. Many simply want to go to a school that has open gyms, have regular practices, have club teams, or have a coach that does more than a 3 man weave. The answer seems seems so simple. Be able to hire qualified coaches. Ken Shields have been that saying for years. He had some interesting comments in the province newspaper last year about BC school sports. Not very flattering. I understand he is running a pilot program now trying to train new teachers how to coach. I hope he is successful. It seems to me that their are enough rules in place, but nobody has a backbone to enforce them. We are scared out of our wits about being sued. The new AAA would be a bonanza for lawyers. Deny new students the right play because you do not want to be forced to the new AAA, BC school sports would over rule you in a minute. If people are not playing by the rules, don't play them. Kids are not going to transfer to a school that cannot schedule any games.
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burnaby



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:23 am

baller1000 wrote:
Some excellent posts!

A couple of questions - points.

The issue of no boundaries for private schools seems like a red herring. Public schools have no boundaries either. Both public and private schools are only limited by the total class population they can accommodate.
.
Have to disagree here. Publics do have very rigid catchments that are enforced by admin due to an agreement not to take students from other schools.
Administrators have a formal agreement to not steal out of catchment students from each other.
Yes, students can 'move' into catchment areas tho. This does happen.
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burnaby



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:29 am

Underdog2010 wrote:
How this proposal will impact the structure and compostion of existing City and regional leagues and zone playoffs will be interesting and I'm sure it will generate much debate.

Perhaps there will be changes, however, AA and AAA schools have competed for Vancity championship for years. Three different tiers won't matter will it?

Also, there are blowouts now and there will be with the new system. Not much difference.

I know that the girls in Van have gone to two tiers to avoid the blowouts. Perhaps the boys should look at that also.
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coachb



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:42 am

Just a general observation from the over all posts there seems to be far more compelling arguments and acceptance to allow another tier. Most accept that there are issues and have been for years with the current system. There has been no resolve nor does there appear to be one in the near future.
While this solution does have some issues and is not perfect it is worth noting that it would be the first real step toward a change other than the complaining and accusations we have seen over the years often in forums like this one.
It will be interesting to see if within the coaches who attend the AGM if there is the will to actually change.
Remember this change would add another provincial championship which provides a chance for more high school student/atheles to play in a high level tournament. If this is really all about the students it should be an absolute no brainer.
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airmax1



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:09 pm

In reading the official proposal by Dockendorf this afternoon it sounds like an opportunity for non-competitive teams to leave to a "Tier II" if you will.

Many of the posts here imply there will be a new elite tier. In actuality it reads like the teams with no transfers can leave to a another tier and how a "B' championship and that that the competitive teams will stay in AAA.

Curious as to how people feel about this.
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baller1000



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:00 am

OldSchool wrote:
.....The problem in our public school system is that coaches cannot be hired based on their coaching. In the private school system, that is not the case. How do you expect public schools to compete with private school? Most States down south have a private school championship. Size does not matter. WRCA proves that every year. If the smaller private schools do not want to play with the big boys, they can tier the private school system. Now back to the public system. Their are rules in place that nobody follows. If you are denied a transfer, the rich can move. Its the poor slobs that have to follow the rules. In the past parents just rented an apartment for a few months, get eligible and move back. Happens all the time. Lots of players seem to follow their Basketball BC regional and provincial coach. If there is a history of this maybe basketball BC should be more selective or sensitive to the issue. Go to a CP or RTC session and listen to the parents magnetize each other. When you talk about kids that transfer, we always assume it is to chase the cup or get a scholarship. Many simply want to go to a school that has open gyms, have regular practices, have club teams, or have a coach that does more than a 3 man weave. The answer seems seems so simple. Be able to hire qualified coaches. Ken Shields have been that saying for years. He had some interesting comments in the province newspaper last year about BC school sports. Not very flattering. I understand he is running a pilot program now trying to train new teachers how to coach. I hope he is successful. It seems to me that their are enough rules in place, but nobody has a backbone to enforce them. We are scared out of our wits about being sued. The new AAA would be a bonanza for lawyers. Deny new students the right play because you do not want to be forced to the new AAA, BC school sports would over rule you in a minute. If people are not playing by the rules, don't play them. Kids are not going to transfer to a school that cannot schedule any games.

I think Oldschool has identified the heart of the problem which few are prepared to admit or even discuss.

Stocktonshorts, on the other hand, makes his arguments on different types of schools creating a "competitive imbalance" and that this proposal will fix that.

What kind of Marxist utopia do the proponents of this proposal imagine should exist? One where all players, teams and coaches are equal and all games should end in a draw?

There will always be competive imbalances. Larger centers will always have a bigger pool of talent. Ethnic diversity also creates potential for imbalance.

AAA schools all start out the same based on school population. Some have committed AD's, consistent qualified coaching and their teams go to camps, hold lots of open gymes and train 5 days a week. Other schools have revolving Ad's, coaches that change every year and practice every other day, when the coach can make time. Not surprisingly the former blows the latter out of the gym. Also, not surprising is that athletes serious about improving, may seek to move to the school with the better program.

That this is a problem of public versus private. is also wrong. The same differences in programs exist there. Some are good, some are less good.

The solution is to work harder at making everyone better. There are rules in place to deal with transfers and they should be enforced and perhaps even strenghtened. Creating a new tier with another set of rules will make it even more difficult and costly to keep track of who is eligible. Teams could be changing tiers every year depending on what has happened with transfers. Who will track this? The coach, the principal, the AD? Who will enforce this?

Imagine a school in the new tier. In the summer a family moves into the area and registers their kid. The kid goes to school a couple of months and shows up for basketball tryouts. He's a great player, but taking him on means ou no longer qualify for the new tier. What do you do? Take him on or cut another player, not because he is not as good as other players but because he was a transfer 2 years before?

If schools are recruiting or athletes families are misrepresenting their situation to achieve a transfer they should be punished under the rules that exist. Punishing successful programs that are abiding by the rules, by in effect, not playing against them anymore is not fair. We do not have a big enough pool of private schools or schools that would remain AAA. The AAA tier could end up being too small to realistically continue to hold a tournamnet in the Agredome. Is that good for basketball? Is that good for the athletes and their development.

This idea is not well thought out. Adding another layer of rules, when the current ones are not enforced, is not an answer. Legislating and enforcing mediocrity will not make basketball better.
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ebe



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:32 am

Baller thank you for your contribution to the discussion you make some good points but in some areas I have to disagree with your assertions. I will highlight some of them below and attempt to give you the rationale and reason for them.
Firstly to suggest that
"This idea is not well thought out."
is simply not accurate. Many coaches have worked very hard over the last couple of years to try and come up with a potential solution to some of the issues that we face in boys basketball. This proposal has had a large number of contributers and has been very thoughtfully put together. Does it have all of the answers? No, it is far from perfect but it is a great way to get the discussion going and allows people to share their concerns and ideas.

What kind of Marxist utopia do the proponents of this proposal imagine should exist? One where all players, teams and coaches are equal and all games should end in a draw?
No real comment here I just thought this was a pretty humourous line. Maybe I can wear some army fatigues and smoke a cigar so I will take on more of a Fidel Castro kind of look.

That this is a problem of public versus private. is also wrong. The same differences in programs exist there. Some are good, some are less good.
There is nothing in this proposal that mentions a public vs private distinction. This public vs private debate is a philospohical issue that has been discussed for a very long time and will always be a polarizing issue. Coaches are more than aware that transfers happen at both public and private schools and that is why this proposal makes no distinction between public and private schools.

Punishing successful programs that are abiding by the rules, by in effect, not playing against them anymore is not fair.
This is not what will happen. Leagues and zones will still be responsible for organizing how they function and there will be in all likelihood little or no change in league or playoff games. In terms of exhibitions and tournaments that has always been and will always be the choice of the school and coach in terms of who they would like to schedule in exhibition competition.

AAA schools all start out the same based on school population. Some have committed AD's, consistent qualified coaching and their teams go to camps, hold lots of open gymes and train 5 days a week. Other schools have revolving Ad's, coaches that change every year and practice every other day, when the coach can make time. Not surprisingly the former blows the latter out of the gym. Also, not surprising is that athletes serious about improving, may seek to move to the school with the better program.
You are correct some schools have coaches who are willing to volunteer countless hours year round and some schools do not. However one of the issues that we are facing is no matter how hard you work and how great a job a school might do in the present landscape it is very difficult to be competitive unless you have several transfers moving to your school. There is nothing in this proposal that makes any judgement about schools who have transfers it is simply saying that there is an ever larger gap that is developing so for those teams who want to have a competitive end of year experience why not offer another option. For those who are at the AAA level nothing will really change and the Agrodome will continue to be the big tournament. If you are a AAA school you will still be able to play at the Agrodome Tournament, if you qualify, regardless of how many transfers you have. If a school has 2 or less transfers they have an option to compete at a new tournament which will in all likelihood be held the week before the Dome.

I hope I have been able to answer some peoples questions about what this proposal is trying to do and I encourage posters on this board to continue to share their ideas. Ultimately debate and discussion are a good thing for any organization as this allows people's voices to be heard and can lead to positive changes.
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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:00 am

OldSchool wrote:
.....

Imagine a school in the new tier. In the summer a family moves into the area and registers their kid. The kid goes to school a couple of months and shows up for basketball tryouts. He's a great player, but taking him on means ou no longer qualify for the new tier. What do you do? Take him on or cut another player, not because he is not as good as other players but because he was a transfer 2 years before?



Coach Ebe, You are amazing and appreciate your response. Can you please offer your comments on the above situation posed by oldschool, which is valid and might happen.
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stocktonsshorts



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:39 pm

Ebe as always your insight is much appreciated.

Baller 1000, you seem really opposed to this propsal.... Why?

Why are you so worried about who will enforce whatever rules are in place? You seem really concerned about the Transfer player who might get overlooked... don't worry no player who is any good will be denied an opportunity to play. Remember, players who leave their catchment to go play somewhere else are making a huge commitment. I think it's naive of you to think that they have no knowledge of the current players on that team or which level of basketball they play. These moves are not random, they are calculated. Of course there are some families who genuinely move into another area... trust me they will be fine.

Why are you so worried about the current AAA tournament? The AAA tourney is and always will be the crown jewel of high school sports. Does it concern you that it is pretty much the same teams in the quarter finals every year give or take one or two... well don't worry, those teams will still be there. If another tier were to be added and it becomes popular so what... that's good isn't it?

I'm glad you acknowledged that there is a problem.... But I never said that this will fix it. Again this is an opportunity for other teams and kids to, as Ebe put it :"have an end of year experience". You need to put some time in coaching a group of kids, working hard with them and then getting it handed to you by a school with players from all over. I think if you did this for a few years you might sing a different tune.

Enjoy the BC's
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baller1000



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:02 pm

ebe wrote:
Baller thank you for your contribution to the discussion you make some good points but in some areas I have to disagree with your assertions. I will highlight some of them below and attempt to give you the rationale and reason for them.
Firstly to suggest that
"This idea is not well thought out."
is simply not accurate. Many coaches have worked very hard over the last couple of years to try and come up with a potential solution to some of the issues that we face in boys basketball. This proposal has had a large number of contributers and has been very thoughtfully put together. Does it have all of the answers? No, it is far from perfect but it is a great way to get the discussion going and allows people to share their concerns and ideas.

What kind of Marxist utopia do the proponents of this proposal imagine should exist? One where all players, teams and coaches are equal and all games should end in a draw?
No real comment here I just thought this was a pretty humourous line. Maybe I can wear some army fatigues and smoke a cigar so I will take on more of a Fidel Castro kind of look.

That this is a problem of public versus private. is also wrong. The same differences in programs exist there. Some are good, some are less good.
There is nothing in this proposal that mentions a public vs private distinction. This public vs private debate is a philospohical issue that has been discussed for a very long time and will always be a polarizing issue. Coaches are more than aware that transfers happen at both public and private schools and that is why this proposal makes no distinction between public and private schools.

Punishing successful programs that are abiding by the rules, by in effect, not playing against them anymore is not fair.
This is not what will happen. Leagues and zones will still be responsible for organizing how they function and there will be in all likelihood little or no change in league or playoff games. In terms of exhibitions and tournaments that has always been and will always be the choice of the school and coach in terms of who they would like to schedule in exhibition competition.

AAA schools all start out the same based on school population. Some have committed AD's, consistent qualified coaching and their teams go to camps, hold lots of open gymes and train 5 days a week. Other schools have revolving Ad's, coaches that change every year and practice every other day, when the coach can make time. Not surprisingly the former blows the latter out of the gym. Also, not surprising is that athletes serious about improving, may seek to move to the school with the better program.
You are correct some schools have coaches who are willing to volunteer countless hours year round and some schools do not. However one of the issues that we are facing is no matter how hard you work and how great a job a school might do in the present landscape it is very difficult to be competitive unless you have several transfers moving to your school. There is nothing in this proposal that makes any judgement about schools who have transfers it is simply saying that there is an ever larger gap that is developing so for those teams who want to have a competitive end of year experience why not offer another option. For those who are at the AAA level nothing will really change and the Agrodome will continue to be the big tournament. If you are a AAA school you will still be able to play at the Agrodome Tournament, if you qualify, regardless of how many transfers you have. If a school has 2 or less transfers they have an option to compete at a new tournament which will in all likelihood be held the week before the Dome.

I hope I have been able to answer some peoples questions about what this proposal is trying to do and I encourage posters on this board to continue to share their ideas. Ultimately debate and discussion are a good thing for any organization as this allows people's voices to be heard and can lead to positive changes.

These posts are getting quite long. Regardless here goes. I will deal with your comments as they appear.

Saying that a few coaches have thought about it, does not make it well thought out. The proposal contains a lot of emotional inuendo regarding some coaches view of an uneven playing field. That emotion and the unsubstantiated allegations on which the proposal are based, makes the solutions offered not well thought out. You need first to prove your thesis about the problem and the cause for it, before you can profer a solution. You have not done that. Also, I and others have asked many questions about various scenarios and enforcement. They are not addressed in the motion. Neither is there any thought about how these new rules will mesh with the current rules, how many teams may be affected or what the tier will look like. I suggest that the lack of answers to those questions makes the proposal not well thought out, as these issues should be dealt with before anyone can give reasonable consideration to such a change.


Marx was the father of socialism which among other things promotes an egalitarian system. I was perhaps being too
ambitious in using that reference to describe the situation here, where some are trying to balance a competetive system which functions with coaches, resources, demographics, and ethnicity factors different from region to region and school to school. Those differences will always exist before we even get into talking about athletes transfering and I see it as folly to try to legislate equality when this is impossible because so many other factors are at play.

Public vs private. I am sorry coach but it is clear that while privates are not mentioned this is also a big swipe against the alleged transgressions of some privates in regard to the number of transfers that naturally occur there. It is the nature of private schools that they attract kids from all over, so they will always have a problem with this proposal regardless of recruiting or not. If they recruit, prove it and punish them.

Could you please spell out how leagues and zones will contiune to function if there is a new tier? Are AAA and AAAA schools going to compete in season? What tier will they win and how will they qualify for the BC's? If a school wins the AAAA league, can they play in the AAA provincial? You seem to suggest that they can compete against each other in regular season and then elect not to at year end. How will all this mesh and what will it look like?

Your statement about not abeing able to succeed without transfers seems to be at odds with what has been posted here about VC. They have achieved considerable success and built a program from Grade 6 up and all but one of their current players have been there since Grade 8. So apparently it can work without transfers.
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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:54 am

Public vs private. I am sorry coach but it is clear that while privates are not mentioned this is also a big swipe against the alleged transgressions of some privates in regard to the number of transfers that naturally occur there. It is the nature of private schools that they attract kids from all over, so they will always have a problem with this proposal regardless of recruiting or not. If they recruit, prove it and punish them.

Could you please spell out how leagues and zones will contiune to function if there is a new tier? Are AAA and AAAA schools going to compete in season? What tier will they win and how will they qualify for the BC's? If a school wins the AAAA league, can they play in the AAA provincial? You seem to suggest that they can compete against each other in regular season and then elect not to at year end. How will all this mesh and what will it look like?



Well Baller...

1. "naturally occurring" is not an accurate way to describe the scholarships and boarding that St G has paid to have certain athletes play for them over the years. VC maybe...Saints for sure not. To be clear I'm not "bashing". I respect Brian Lee and find him to be a good and kind coach and person. Clearly their school admin is ok with breaking the rules since they paid the $.

2. In the vancouver city league schools like King George and Brit play with all of the other schools in a league and then compete in the lowermainland AA zones to qualify for BC's. Pretty sure the same thing would happen with the new proposal

3. I am not in favour of the new proposal. I will be voting against it on Friday. I predict recruitment etc will stay the same, but with a "if you don't like it, don't complain, go into tier II AAA and compete for a lesser championship" if it passes. For me it's not the solution to a very complicated situation. Do I have an answer? No. Are Ebe and Dockendorf trying to give a solution, yes...it's more than I'm doing. I just don't feel its the one that will save our sport....not that BCSS enforcement will do that...our hiring practices are mostly to blame...the politically correct assumption that all teachers are equal hurts basketball and academics. And on that note UBC teachers school has been instructing student teachers that they should not coach to prevent burnout.....troubling times in our sport
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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:06 am

Why is it important for non recruiting or transfer AAA schools to have their own championship? Should the public A schools not get a chance to compete too? Its obvious that with 9 of the top 10 A schools being private, public schools are shut out of any chance to compete. Should the AA follow? We should have 6 provincial championships and everyone would be happy. Seems to me these disgruntled AAA coaches are only looking after themselves, not the game of basketball. What is out there now that prevents all these unhappy schools from getting together this week or last week and having the non recruiting championships and award themselves a banner or whatever? Creating more championships does not make things better. Indiana high school basketball had the best tournament in the history of high school sports. ONE tournament for all schools. All the do-gooders decided it was not fair for the little guy and the dismantled the greatest show in high school sports. I had a chance to visit some of the historic schools in Indiana and talk to some of the coaches and people connected with basketball. They are not happy with how things have turned out. They know they cannot go back now. Most would have stopped the change if they knew how things turned out. Lets not make the same mistake. If people are cheating, lets deal with them. If people are taking advantage of the rules , tighten them up or change them. Don't destroy the best high school championship because you can't be at the tournament every year.
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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:42 am

In my coacing career I have been lucky enough to have teams from three different schools compete at the AAA tournament and it is a great experience. I hope that if we are playing at the AAA level in the future that I am fortunate enough to get back to the tournament as many times as possible. If I thought that the intent of this motion was to destroy the AAA tournament I would never support it. This proposal is not about name calling or attacking anyody it is simply trying to find a way to address an issue that is of great concern to many coaches. If enough coaches believe this is a proposal that will help increase opportunties for student-athletes and hopefully help to make high school basketball better then I don't see how this is a bad thing. Change is not always easy but sometimes it can lead to great things. Ultimately if the proposal passes or fails in the end we will be a better association for having had the discussion.
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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:51 pm

ebe wrote:
In my coacing career I have been lucky enough to have teams from three different schools compete at the AAA tournament and it is a great experience. I hope that if we are playing at the AAA level in the future that I am fortunate enough to get back to the tournament as many times as possible. If I thought that the intent of this motion was to destroy the AAA tournament I would never support it. This proposal is not about name calling or attacking anyody it is simply trying to find a way to address an issue that is of great concern to many coaches. If enough coaches believe this is a proposal that will help increase opportunties for student-athletes and hopefully help to make high school basketball better then I don't see how this is a bad thing. Change is not always easy but sometimes it can lead to great things. Ultimately if the proposal passes or fails in the end we will be a better association for having had the discussion.

Well I can certainly agree with your last statement coach.

However, I think the inherent flaw with this proposal is that it is primarily based on what is of concern to coaches and what coaches believe make things better for athletes.

Right now, what is driving this thing for many coaches is transfers. There can be no argument about that. That is what the motion is all about, a tier with a specified number of transfers. If it is coaches that are initiating or recruiting those transfers, then that should be punished under the rules we have. If it is athletes that are making the choice to transfer within the rules, then we have to ask ourselves why is that athlete not happy with where they are, not take that choice away from them.

If we need a new tier because there are schools that feel they can not compete at the AAA level because of resources, time etc then maybe there needs to be that tier. It should not however be using transfers as a yardstick for eligibility for that tier, because that does not recognize the root cause of the situation with that school.

Quite aside form athletics, transfers are a fact of every schools life. Telling transfer kids they can't be on your team because that will put you into another tier, is not helping student athletes.

I see this as a lose lose for both types of schools. Those with transfers and those that may have only one or two(right now).
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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:09 pm

Two threads appearing one coaches, two what is best for players.

First coaches - how do you attract new coaches to schools that have been for years lets call them "have nots". The "have nots" commonly lose the best athletes to the "haves" since those players and parents want the want the "haves" have. So what do you tell that coach? Don't worry work your tail off for years continue to lose to the "haves" and one day maybe you get lucky and even though you have lost for years maybe never appeared in the big dance your superior coaching skills will win you the trip with your "have nots" over the "haves". Then you will have arrived and become a future "have". I don't know about you but not real motivational or appealing maybe just one factor why teachers get burned out and don't stay with coaching. You get tired of losing kids and getting your ass kicked by the "haves".

So you want to develop and attract coaches, give them a venue to help develop, have some success and develop the program and ultimately develop more players. I know people will kick the hell out of this but I want to keep it short, like a short fairy tale with a happy ending.

Second students - Simple another tournament that will not detract from the existing tournament creates more oppourtunities for more students in school.

So now you potentially could develop more coaches and more players!
No doubt there are some concerns about the proposal but it would be a step to address some of the concerns. It would be nice to see some new faces/teams at a provincial tournament I get tired of seeing the same teams year after year time for a change. Be nice to see if we seeing a display of good coaching or good recruiting too.
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baller1000



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:30 pm

CoachB, you are making my point for me. This motion is driven by and all about coaches.

Coaching is about more than winning and any good coach knows that. Yet when you say, dripping with sarcasm "Don't worry work your tail off for years continue to lose to the "haves" and one day maybe you get lucky and even though you have lost for years maybe never appeared in the big dance your superior coaching skills will win ............and then go on to say "Be nice to see if we seeing a display of good coaching or good recruiting too" it appears that bitterness has a lot to do with this.

As I have said before, taking choices, away from students is not the answer. This proposal creates more barriers to success than it eliminates, by putting an arbitrary limit on legitimate student athlete transfers which may actually make a school more successful.

This proposal assumes wrongly that all athletes transferring are doing so only for athletic reasons. So, just what do you do when a 6'10" kid moves to your school catchment from Alberta and you already have 2 transfers in your system? You don't have a strong team and even with the 6"10" kid you are not going to win the big dance BUT you will have a better team? Under this proposal if you take him on, you are right back where we are now. If you say no, you can't play with us because that will put us out of our tier, you are not being fair to him or the rest of your kids on the team.

One wonders if we also need to consider the effect the creation of this tier on the current tournament. Given the acrimony and bitterness that has spawned this exercise, will the AAA be labeled as the tournament for those teams not playing fair? Judging from some of the posts here, I fear that it will. Will sponsors want to be part of that?

If we need a tier for teams that feel they can't compete so be it. However, basing it on the number of legitimate transfers is wrongheaded and limits choices for students. As has been discussed, there are many factors that go into a successful program. This motion assumes that athlete transfers are the main cause behind successful programs, when in fact athlete transfers are not the cause, but one of the effects.

If we want more competitive opportunities for teams unable to make the Provincial AAA, then have another tournament, before the BC's at the end of league play. Invite the teams that finished one or two out of the BC's qualification and call it the BC Senior Invitational. Just a thought.

Leave student choices alone and crack down hard on transfer and recruiting violations with the rules we have now.
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coachb



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:40 pm

Baller you miss both points completely.
One another tier will help new coaches and help to develop new coaches.
Two another tournamnet adds more oppourtuinities for kore students.
I see this as a win win.
Of course the motion is driven by coaches, coaches who are concerned that the current system needs to be changed for the betterment of all. Likely if you go back in the history of changes they have been brought forward by people involved in and closest to the system, gosh that just might be coaches. People who have a track record of volunteering hundreds of hours of time for the sport and students.
You also are making assumptions that at this point have no basis in fact. Your assumption also slams too many coaches by saying winning is all that matters is winning, you sell them short.
The rules mean nothing and history has proven that true.
As far as transfers goes it is really simple you need horses to win the race and transfers do create a difference. Last time I checked the public school system is based on catchment areas, whereas the private schools are not, so are you really making a case for private schools here? In which case you could always form a private school tournament which no one seems to want to do.
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baller1000



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:34 pm

coachb wrote:
Baller you miss both points completely.
One another tier will help new coaches and help to develop new coaches.
Two another tournamnet adds more oppourtuinities for kore students.
I see this as a win win.
Of course the motion is driven by coaches, coaches who are concerned that the current system needs to be changed for the betterment of all. Likely if you go back in the history of changes they have been brought forward by people involved in and closest to the system, gosh that just might be coaches. People who have a track record of volunteering hundreds of hours of time for the sport and students.
You also are making assumptions that at this point have no basis in fact. Your assumption also slams too many coaches by saying winning is all that matters is winning, you sell them short.
The rules mean nothing and history has proven that true.
As far as transfers goes it is really simple you need horses to win the race and transfers do create a difference. Last time I checked the public school system is based on catchment areas, whereas the private schools are not, so are you really making a case for private schools here? In which case you could always form a private school tournament which no one seems to want to do.

Ok, more sarcasm and now you are splitting literal hairs. Let me rephrase. This motion is driven by the self interest of some coaches and the comments from your earlier post sarcastically making the argument that coaches can't win, despite their "superior coaching" skills, bears that out. I do not dispute that coaches are behind it. Hopefully that's cleared up.

I propose we should be thinking about the interests of students.

And once again you make another point for me. You say "The rules mean nothing and history has proven that true". So why the heck would you advocate setting up another set of rules when we allegedly can't enforce current ones?

I have been asking ad nauseum about who will monitor, enforce and adjudicate the rules for this new tier and received no clarification. I have also asked how all this will mesh with current transfer rules and posed several reasonable transfer scenarios that make this whole idea very problematic. Again nothing.

So just how well thought out is this?

There probably is not much point debating this further as in a few hours we will know what coaches want to do with this. I hope they do what is right for kids and basketball. Attaching a stigma to the current tier and creating barriers to legitimate transfers in the new tier is not the solution.
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coachb



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:36 am

Tonight we did see what many coaches wanted at the vote and that was a new tournament so that more students would have a chance to compete, and if you are concerned about the students as you have said you will be saddened to find out the motion was defeated.
The vote was close and was defeated by the private school coaches and the governors combined, without the old school who are reluctant to change anything the motion would have csrried. So we carry on as before.
Understand the motion was defeated by those attempting to protect their self interests not the interests of players.
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burnaby



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Sat Mar 20, 2010 2:48 am

bc school sports adjudicates transfer requests.
It's one thing for them to rule that a coach has 'recruited' and another to count how many transfers are on the team.
The former requires personal testimony by those involved, including the recruitee or someone who is an eye (ear) witness.
The latter will simply require them to count the number of transfers in their records.
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Underdog2010



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:49 pm

I am all for another competitive AAA Tier II Provincial Championship tournament to give more teams the chance to extend their season. More opportunity for more student-athletes to play more games is a good thing.

However, have the originators and some of the supporters of this new tier proposal given much thought to the unintended consequences, which are likely to be much different than they envisioned?

The new tier proposal will probably increase the number of transfers to fewer schools. To student-athletes and their parents, it will probably seem to be more risky to transfer to schools that will tend to play AAA Tier II, as some of these schools may be tempted to limit the opportunity for a transfer to play if this puts them over the 2 transfer limit – better to transfer to a Tier I school where this is less likely to be a potential problem. This proposal will not prove to be a barrier to transfers but rather will help them identify the better programs that will tend to play AAA Tier I. Better basketball players will still want to be at schools with the best programs and that have teams with a decent chance to play at the Tier I Provincial Championship. Tier II schools (like AA schools now) will be considered to have inferior programs. For the have-not Tier II schools, the end result may be that they will get even less of the gifted basketball players and lose more of them than they do now. As I said in another post, it is way better to be a big fish in a big pond. Stocktonsshorts stated it well: “These moves are not random, they are calculated.”

Many coaches, including probably the majority of the volunteer community coaches, are competitive individuals by nature and would rather coach the best serious, dedicated players and competitive teams at the highest possible level. They also then get to socialize with like-minded persons at games and tournaments and get more recognition. Don’t underestimate the importance of these factors as most of the coaches are not paid and some are actually shelling money out of their own pockets for gas and expenses. More and more high school sports programs are relying on volunteer community coaches and it is hard to believe this will start to change any time soon – too much politics and not enough funding. Community coaches can pick the school they want to be involved with and it better have a supportive administration and athletic director or they will quit or change schools. If this new tier proposal is implemented, I can see some of the best coaches (community and teacher) migrating to the Tier I schools. When I say best coaches, I am including those that are willing to put in the hundreds of volunteer hours 10 to 12 months a year, not just the ones with the best coaching skills. So in terms of coaching skills and willingness, more of the Tier II schools might end up worse off than they are now. Another tier will probably not help new coaches and help to develop new coaches at Tier II schools, but it may at Tier I schools.

In the end the competitive gap between schools will probably increase and we will be on the way to the creation of an AAAA/premier/elite level (if only at a first, as is somewhat the case now, in an unofficial way). I doubt if this is what the originators if this new tier proposal intended, but I am all for it. The larger the competitive gap and the more lop-sided the scores become, the more demand there will be for separate AAAA levels/divisions/leagues. There never has been and never will be enough very serious, talented players for even half of the 100 plus AAA schools to be competitive with each other. It is better for serious student-athletes, for serious coaches and for the state of the game in the Province and Country if the best players and coaches are concentrated at fewer schools. This new tier proposal could help salvage and improve high school basketball. Maybe it could also help keep the very best athletes playing in BC and avoid the problem Ontario has with many of the best high school players going to the USA.

You don’t need to be concerned about sponsorship of the current AAA (and hopefully future AAAA) Provincial Championship tournament. TELUS and other sponsors will want to be associated with the best tournament with the best teams and players. The more premier and prestigious the tournament is the better the sponsors will like it.

The coaches at the public and private basketball powerhouses that are opposed to this new tier proposal should reconsider their position.
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Hoops-9



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PostSubject: Re: New Tier For Senior AAA   Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:58 pm

I wouldn't like the idea of having a new tier. Many schools have transfer players, sure, but virtually every boys' basketball program in BC (or, at least, every successful one) has out-of-catchment players, regardless of whether they have been at the school since grade 8/9 or not. It's the same thing - players attend a school they really shouldn't be, leading to successful programs based on what the athletes can do, not good coaching. An example of this is Pitt Meadows (even though it would not be a good example for the coaching half of the argument - I think Rich Goulet is an excellent coach); they have built such a good program that kids from not only Pitt Meadows but also Maple Ridge want to go there. So basically all of the basketball players who want to play in a good program from those two cities will go to Pitt.

Another thing: you can't blame a kid for wanting to attend a winning program. There is a quote on a shirt I saw once that said "No one trains to lose." Exactly right. This is why there is so much disloyalty to the home school of a young athlete - if their catchment school (the one they are supposed to go to) doesn't have a winning program, most would choose to just go to the next closest school with a decent program.
Plus, it's not really the coach's fault if an amazing athlete shows up at their school (sometimes convinced by friends that go to the school), wanting to play a sport. I find a lot of times that people get frustrated with "recruiting" by coaches, when it's not actually recruiting. It's kids realizing that they might want to attend a different school (just a little late of entering HS), convinced by their friends.

This whole thing...it's about the kids. What I find is happening, though, is that coaches tend to feel it is about them. I know coaches are a huge part, but it's High School basketball, for goodness' sake! These are 16 and 17-year-old kids we're talking about here, and you're concerned about transfers and recruiting?! What about developing the athletes you DO have instead of worrying about the ones you DON'T?

And instead of introducing a new tier, why doesn't BC School Sports make their rules stricter? I believe the official rule is that after the grade 10 year, a student-athlete cannot attend a different school and play the same sport (that they did at the old school - unless they move houses), or if they want to, they must wait-out a year. Sure, that's a good rule, but is it just me, or have the "transfers" all come for their grade 11 and 12 seasons??

I apologize if I have contradicted myself on my points.
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