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 NorthPoleHoops Showcase - Sr. Players

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Mark Scott



Posts : 286
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PostSubject: Re: NorthPoleHoops Showcase - Sr. Players   Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:50 am

lukester0506 wrote:
Sirslamalot wrote:
BB fanatic wrote:

I went to the Western Washington camp and it was first class, no bias no favorites, just talent.
Would be nice for someone to create a West Coast version and run it with no affiliations.

An Allstar game with players from BC who plays the senior level who are players in grades 11-12 with an addition of a limited amount of 10s? Or a training camp of players from BC and ranking them?

Training camps, all-star games and rankings are all good to promote the game, but they won't do away with the politics of ranking players. Rankings are biased and political by nature. Replacing NPH with local coaches just changes the biases.  Rankings are always wrong because there is rarely a right answer and they are only “right” for a short period. Players improve, grow, mature or they decline. Every coach and fan has a different opinion about a player. While I understand the impression that Drive dictates the rankings, I think their influence is more subtle than what has been described. Part of Drive’s value-added service is their ability and willingness to hype and promote a promising player. Some of it is overt cheerleading, but that doesn't work for long, so they use personal influence and behind the scenes comments to get players highly ranked (or lower the ranking of the other club’s players). It is part of the game – and sometimes nasty and mean-spirited – but a reality of rankings. They need to be shrewd about it and use their political capital sparingly and carefully to maintain their integrity.

As much as everyone complains about NPH, they are a significant benefit to helping provide exposure to players across the country. Keep in mind though, that they cannot come to Vancouver and be expected to know who the best players are after only a two day session. They take guidance. How many non-Drive coaches have developed a relationship with NPH? Not even all the top players show up – and some programs discourage their players from attending. Telling players not to go, then bitching about the rankings is not helping the sport or the player.

The other thing to keep in mind is that whether you like it or not, coaches from outside Canada use the rankings as a general guide to who is good. They use NPH. They are not offering scholarships because of them, but they do use them as a source of information. NPH builds its reputation, and adds value, by providing good information to coaches. If it accepts wildly bad advice from coaches who over-hype players, including Drive, they will not be in business long.

Instead of complaining about the rankings or the process, I would encourage coaches, clubs and others to develop a relationship with the NPH guys. They have seen more players recently and been to more games across the country than anyone on this forum. Help make them better. Don’t sit on the sidelines while Drive plays a smart game of using its influence to promote its players and their program, at the expense of yours.

And one final comment, both Corey Hauck and Adam Karmali played for Basketball BC at the time of that NPH camp. BBC runs an exceptional program, that is very well coached, but they do not help players get exposure, which, on the margin, is key to earning a scholarship. They either do not understand how to promote players or do not see it as their mandate. Their objective is to win the Nationals.  No coach is missing 7 foot Rob Sacre or Kelly Olynyk. With Drive whispering in NPH’s ear, few other club or high school coaches attending the NPH sessions, and BBC dead-silent, it is not a surprising result for kids who are not 7 foot tall.
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Sirslamalot



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PostSubject: You agree   Fri Oct 03, 2014 10:13 pm

Mark Scott wrote:
lukester0506 wrote:
Sirslamalot wrote:
BB fanatic wrote:

I went to the Western Washington camp and it was first class, no bias no favorites, just talent.
Would be nice for someone to create a West Coast version and run it with no affiliations.

An Allstar game with players from BC who plays the senior level who are players in grades 11-12 with an addition of a limited amount of 10s? Or a training camp of players from BC and ranking them?

Training camps, all-star games and rankings are all good to promote the game, but they won't do away with the politics of ranking players. Rankings are biased and political by nature. Replacing NPH with local coaches just changes the biases.  Rankings are always wrong because there is rarely a right answer and they are only “right” for a short period. Players improve, grow, mature or they decline. Every coach and fan has a different opinion about a player. While I understand the impression that Drive dictates the rankings, I think their influence is more subtle than what has been described. Part of Drive’s value-added service is their ability and willingness to hype and promote a promising player. Some of it is overt cheerleading, but that doesn't work for long, so they use personal influence and behind the scenes comments to get players highly ranked (or lower the ranking of the other club’s players). It is part of the game – and sometimes nasty and mean-spirited – but a reality of rankings. They need to be shrewd about it and use their political capital sparingly and carefully to maintain their integrity.

As much as everyone complains about NPH, they are a significant benefit to helping provide exposure to players across the country. Keep in mind though, that they cannot come to Vancouver and be expected to know who the best players are after only a two day session. They take guidance. How many non-Drive coaches have developed a relationship with NPH? Not even all the top players show up – and some programs discourage their players from attending. Telling players not to go, then bitching about the rankings is not helping the sport or the player.

The other thing to keep in mind is that whether you like it or not, coaches from outside Canada use the rankings as a general guide to who is good. They use NPH. They are not offering scholarships because of them, but they do use them as a source of information. NPH builds its reputation, and adds value, by providing good information to coaches. If it accepts wildly bad advice from coaches who over-hype players, including Drive, they will not be in business long.

Instead of complaining about the rankings or the process, I would encourage coaches, clubs and others to develop a relationship with the NPH guys. They have seen more players recently and been to more games across the country than anyone on this forum. Help make them better. Don’t sit on the sidelines while Drive plays a smart game of using its influence to promote its players and their program, at the expense of yours.

And one final comment, both Corey Hauck and Adam Karmali played for Basketball BC at the time of that NPH camp. BBC runs an exceptional program, that is very well coached, but they do not help players get exposure, which, on the margin, is key to earning a scholarship. They either do not understand how to promote players or do not see it as their mandate. Their objective is to win the Nationals.  No coach is missing 7 foot Rob Sacre or Kelly Olynyk. With Drive whispering in NPH’s ear, few other club or high school coaches attending the NPH sessions, and BBC dead-silent, it is not a surprising result for kids who are not 7 foot tall.


You agree then? Why should BBC be at the NPH camp to promote their players? It is not a Drive camp, it should be unbiased and the NPH staff should have no interaction with the Drive people.
For years I coached at Nike Hoop Summit camps in the USA and we evaluated based on skill and did not speak to AAU coaches or parents. We looked for talent, not where they played.
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Mark Scott



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PostSubject: Re: NorthPoleHoops Showcase - Sr. Players   Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:02 pm

Sirslamalot wrote:
Mark Scott wrote:
lukester0506 wrote:
Sirslamalot wrote:
BB fanatic wrote:

I went to the Western Washington camp and it was first class, no bias no favorites, just talent.
Would be nice for someone to create a West Coast version and run it with no affiliations.

An Allstar game with players from BC who plays the senior level who are players in grades 11-12 with an addition of a limited amount of 10s? Or a training camp of players from BC and ranking them?

Training camps, all-star games and rankings are all good to promote the game, but they won't do away with the politics of ranking players. Rankings are biased and political by nature. Replacing NPH with local coaches just changes the biases.  Rankings are always wrong because there is rarely a right answer and they are only “right” for a short period. Players improve, grow, mature or they decline. Every coach and fan has a different opinion about a player. While I understand the impression that Drive dictates the rankings, I think their influence is more subtle than what has been described. Part of Drive’s value-added service is their ability and willingness to hype and promote a promising player. Some of it is overt cheerleading, but that doesn't work for long, so they use personal influence and behind the scenes comments to get players highly ranked (or lower the ranking of the other club’s players). It is part of the game – and sometimes nasty and mean-spirited – but a reality of rankings. They need to be shrewd about it and use their political capital sparingly and carefully to maintain their integrity.

As much as everyone complains about NPH, they are a significant benefit to helping provide exposure to players across the country. Keep in mind though, that they cannot come to Vancouver and be expected to know who the best players are after only a two day session. They take guidance. How many non-Drive coaches have developed a relationship with NPH? Not even all the top players show up – and some programs discourage their players from attending. Telling players not to go, then bitching about the rankings is not helping the sport or the player.

The other thing to keep in mind is that whether you like it or not, coaches from outside Canada use the rankings as a general guide to who is good. They use NPH. They are not offering scholarships because of them, but they do use them as a source of information. NPH builds its reputation, and adds value, by providing good information to coaches. If it accepts wildly bad advice from coaches who over-hype players, including Drive, they will not be in business long.

Instead of complaining about the rankings or the process, I would encourage coaches, clubs and others to develop a relationship with the NPH guys. They have seen more players recently and been to more games across the country than anyone on this forum. Help make them better. Don’t sit on the sidelines while Drive plays a smart game of using its influence to promote its players and their program, at the expense of yours.

And one final comment, both Corey Hauck and Adam Karmali played for Basketball BC at the time of that NPH camp. BBC runs an exceptional program, that is very well coached, but they do not help players get exposure, which, on the margin, is key to earning a scholarship. They either do not understand how to promote players or do not see it as their mandate. Their objective is to win the Nationals.  No coach is missing 7 foot Rob Sacre or Kelly Olynyk. With Drive whispering in NPH’s ear, few other club or high school coaches attending the NPH sessions, and BBC dead-silent, it is not a surprising result for kids who are not 7 foot tall.


You agree then? Why should BBC be at the NPH camp to promote their players? It is not a Drive camp, it should be unbiased and the NPH staff should have no interaction with the Drive people.
For years I coached at Nike Hoop Summit camps in the USA and we evaluated based on skill and did not speak to AAU coaches or  parents. We looked for talent, not where they played.

Coaches should attend to support their players and build a relationship with NPH. Drive does it well. It is part of their advantage. They know how to network with coaches and others in the system. They support, attract and lavish attention on elite players, which is how they attract D1 coaches, which in turn enables them to get other strong players, arrange better schedules and continue their advantage.

All the other groups try to compete on coaching, which is critical, but not enough. Kids want scholarships and opportunities to play at the highest level. Great players are usually found regardless of where they play, but the marginal players need the help.

Nike's model is different than NPH's model, so not sure they are comparable. I doubt we can ever get to a pure, unbiased system of ranking. Drive provides the gym, so don't get why should not even show up. I have also not seen them overtly pump their players at those NPH events. it would be too crass. All the lobbying, backslapping is done off stage.... I think others need to stand up for their players, develop those key relationships and compete with Drive in an ethical way, instead of abandoning the field.
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HF



Posts : 35
Join date : 2014-01-09
Location : BC

PostSubject: Re: NorthPoleHoops Showcase - Sr. Players   Sun Oct 05, 2014 4:39 pm

Mark Scott wrote:
Sirslamalot wrote:
Mark Scott wrote:
lukester0506 wrote:
Sirslamalot wrote:
BB fanatic wrote:

I went to the Western Washington camp and it was first class, no bias no favorites, just talent.
Would be nice for someone to create a West Coast version and run it with no affiliations.

An Allstar game with players from BC who plays the senior level who are players in grades 11-12 with an addition of a limited amount of 10s? Or a training camp of players from BC and ranking them?

Training camps, all-star games and rankings are all good to promote the game, but they won't do away with the politics of ranking players. Rankings are biased and political by nature. Replacing NPH with local coaches just changes the biases.  Rankings are always wrong because there is rarely a right answer and they are only “right” for a short period. Players improve, grow, mature or they decline. Every coach and fan has a different opinion about a player. While I understand the impression that Drive dictates the rankings, I think their influence is more subtle than what has been described. Part of Drive’s value-added service is their ability and willingness to hype and promote a promising player. Some of it is overt cheerleading, but that doesn't work for long, so they use personal influence and behind the scenes comments to get players highly ranked (or lower the ranking of the other club’s players). It is part of the game – and sometimes nasty and mean-spirited – but a reality of rankings. They need to be shrewd about it and use their political capital sparingly and carefully to maintain their integrity.

As much as everyone complains about NPH, they are a significant benefit to helping provide exposure to players across the country. Keep in mind though, that they cannot come to Vancouver and be expected to know who the best players are after only a two day session. They take guidance. How many non-Drive coaches have developed a relationship with NPH? Not even all the top players show up – and some programs discourage their players from attending. Telling players not to go, then bitching about the rankings is not helping the sport or the player.

The other thing to keep in mind is that whether you like it or not, coaches from outside Canada use the rankings as a general guide to who is good. They use NPH. They are not offering scholarships because of them, but they do use them as a source of information. NPH builds its reputation, and adds value, by providing good information to coaches. If it accepts wildly bad advice from coaches who over-hype players, including Drive, they will not be in business long.

Instead of complaining about the rankings or the process, I would encourage coaches, clubs and others to develop a relationship with the NPH guys. They have seen more players recently and been to more games across the country than anyone on this forum. Help make them better. Don’t sit on the sidelines while Drive plays a smart game of using its influence to promote its players and their program, at the expense of yours.

And one final comment, both Corey Hauck and Adam Karmali played for Basketball BC at the time of that NPH camp. BBC runs an exceptional program, that is very well coached, but they do not help players get exposure, which, on the margin, is key to earning a scholarship. They either do not understand how to promote players or do not see it as their mandate. Their objective is to win the Nationals.  No coach is missing 7 foot Rob Sacre or Kelly Olynyk. With Drive whispering in NPH’s ear, few other club or high school coaches attending the NPH sessions, and BBC dead-silent, it is not a surprising result for kids who are not 7 foot tall.


You agree then? Why should BBC be at the NPH camp to promote their players? It is not a Drive camp, it should be unbiased and the NPH staff should have no interaction with the Drive people.
For years I coached at Nike Hoop Summit camps in the USA and we evaluated based on skill and did not speak to AAU coaches or  parents. We looked for talent, not where they played.

Coaches should attend to support their players and build a relationship with NPH. Drive does it well. It is part of their advantage. They know how to network with coaches and others in the system. They support, attract and lavish attention on elite players, which is how they attract D1 coaches, which in turn enables them to get other strong players, arrange better schedules and continue their advantage.

All the other groups try to compete on coaching, which is critical, but not enough. Kids want scholarships and opportunities to play at the highest level. Great players are usually found regardless of where they play, but the marginal players need the help.

Nike's model is different than NPH's model, so not sure they are comparable. I doubt we can ever get to a pure, unbiased system of ranking. Drive provides the gym, so don't get why should not even show up. I have also not seen them overtly pump their players at those NPH events. it would be too crass. All the lobbying, backslapping is done off stage.... I think others need to stand up for their players, develop those key relationships and compete with Drive in an ethical way, instead of abandoning the field.

Thank-you Mark for bringing some sense to this thread. All you Drive haters sound pathetic. All they do is promise to make you a better basketball player, take you to the top events and showcase you to give you an opportunity to play post-secondary at the highest level you choose to go. Having had sons in both BBC and Drive, there is no comparison. Why do you think most of the best players are at Drive and Team BC gets hamered at Nationals ? NPH is just one of many sources to look at and they bring attention to the sport on both sides of the border. They are not getting rich off of this so back off the critisism. I saw them in at several tourneys this summer, including Las Vegas where they saw every top player play who was playing this summer at AAU...which is the top level out here. They don't just rank players based on a 2 day camp at the Oval. I have no idea why you would blame Drive for something NPH does. If you are looking to get your son exposed to colleges, I would suggest you tape their games and start sending out tape to schools and recruiting services because if you are relying on NPH, BBC or even Drive to get exposure then you are on the wrong path and limiting your breadth. Take whichever road you want but to hear you spout off about Drive and their tactics is ridiculous.
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PostSubject: Re: NorthPoleHoops Showcase - Sr. Players   Sun Oct 05, 2014 7:32 pm

NPH relies on their connections with private clubs who hype the he_ _ out of a very select few of their top players (who are normally the only ones to make national rankings).  Not saying these players are not worthy (they are)but NPH has big blind spot.  If NPH wants to have a more credible "national" ranking they need greater exposure to select big tourneys, provincial H.S. championships etc. in other parts of the country.
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