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 U15 CHampionships and Rule Changes

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CoachDJR



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PostSubject: U15 CHampionships and Rule Changes   Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:56 am

Apparently (and I say this since I've only heard through conversation with people who should know, not first hand) Canada Basketball is imposing some rule modifications at the U15 championships. I'm not sure of their entire rationale but my guess would be with a number of provinces not sending teams recently they want to make it more inviting to teams/provinces that would have less skilled individual athletes. Giving teams more time to work on getting better shots for their kids and allowing for more cutting and passing.

A couple of the rule changes I've heard about:

- 6 more seconds on the shot clock from 24 up to 30.
- Making ball screens illegal (not sure if they mean foul or violation, but they want to eliminate the ball screen usage at this level).


As I stated I don't know all the rule changes or the entire rationale behind them. To this point I don't think its a good idea but I'm sure someone who knew enough could change my mind. Has anyone heard anything else about this? What our the thoughts and feelings on rule modifications that we currently make here or should make?

I just thought this would be a good topic starter during a quiet time.
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Hardfouls



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PostSubject: Re: U15 CHampionships and Rule Changes   Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:42 pm

I can confirm the rumors are true.

- 30 second shot clock (but 8 sec to cross center)
- no zone defense...not even full court
- no ball screens

I don't think this is to "win back" the smaller provinces. I think those who know Mike MacKay would say this is consistent (except of the shot clock change) with what he has been preaching for some time now. The rational I've been given (by BNB & CB) is they are trying to reduce the stuff coaches need to teach, especially the complexities of defending ball screens. The hope is more time can be spent teaching kid the necessary ball screens skills.

It would appear the U15 game will become more guard oriented this year which isn't necessarily a bad thing for NB or other small provinces.


Last edited by Hardfouls on Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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RHCWDBOT



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PostSubject: U 15 rule changes   Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:44 am

I know Mike and maybe he should get over himself for a second and let the game develop itself...24 second shot clock was his baby forever and now he his a proponent of the 30!!! This is a total shift in his viewpoint and I am hoping he did not have anything to do with it or I have one word to say...CONSISTENCY! No ball screen and no zone at the National level so basically restricting our best U 15 players in Canada to a set of rules for developmental purposes!? We are starting to try and develop players by setting rules which will force Coaches to teach skills...Who do these decision makers think they are? I find it very arrogant and with little thought but we continue to listen to these guys like they are Basketball Gods...Anybody watch Rautins coach a game? Canada is not improving on National Stage and its not about our rules!

Let our elite athletes learn all aspects of the game and stop changing the rules...focus on training coaches and not changing the game...Basketball Canada is a joke! Watch their crappy commercial and send your 5 bucks to promote them but I wont be ...
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Wombat



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PostSubject: Thoughts   Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:48 am

I have a couple of thoughts on this....
1. Are we truly helping coaches/athletes here? Think about it this way....Lets say our provincial teams (U15) are playing a club team or another group in an exhibition game or tournament before Nationals. Is that club team going to be using ball screens? Are the coaches going to not have to teach how to defend them and how to use them? I do not see how this really helps coaches or players any....I believe coaches will still need to spend time teaching the various aspects of the ball screen in there practices.
2. Are referees going to call an illegal ball screen? Will it be a foul? Turnover? Can we really fault a kid with a turnover for setting a ball screen?
3. There has been no indication as to how zones will be enforced...Will the Ref issue a technical? What is the penalty?
4. Canada just had two players in the McDonalds All American game this year. We are sending four teams to World Championships this year....are we not heading in the right direction? Are we not developing players (perhaps at a higher level then ever)? Do we really need these changes....I know when Cory Joseph played U15, he came off ball screens....
5. The 30 sec. clock doesnt seem to add up....finally getting everything to the 24 was an accomplishment, now let's go back to the 30? Can we not make up our minds....

just some thoughts....
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Hardfouls



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PostSubject: Re: U15 CHampionships and Rule Changes   Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:31 pm

I’ll agree the change to a 30 sec shot clock is inconsistent with what CB has been telling us for the last 5 years, however, I also don’t know the rational behind the decision. Maybe it’s the coaches pressuring Canada Basketball to change back. Who knows?

For me I don’t mind the “no zone” and “no ball screens” rules. This means I have a little less to put in place. Given the limited amount of practice time the U15 provincial teams have to get ready for Nationals this is fine by me.

I’m also pretty sure there will be coaches out there spending a lot of effort trying to find ways around the new rules. They’ll have run-and-jump presses instead of zone presses. They’ll trap the ball and guard passing lanes (not necessarily people) behind the trap. They’ll have their wing players dribble drive behind cutters (like a pick play with receivers in football) instead of ball screens. And of course, they’ll play a sagging man-to-man with lots of switching on screens attempting to protect the paint area. All kinds of goodies for our elite players to prepare for.

The issue about playing club teams who will be playing zone and/or running ball screens is a legitimate concern. This might impact the U15 coach’s decisions about going to the states to play games.
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RHCWDBOT



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PostSubject: Point made   Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:52 pm

Your response already proves a point...Not sure if we would play in the states( best competition), club teams , etc...Already negatively impacting Canadian basketball by resricting who we could play cause of rule differential...Ball screens and zones have been in the game forever...Not going to impact how much less you work on things ...Cause zone offence is about quick ball movement and reading defence...hmmm sounds like a vaguely familiar concept... And ball screens??? Screen roll has beenn around since the inception ...Give Naismith credit!

Teams are going to switch every screen and contain everything with a pack line defence anyway so their will be no rotations or at least very little...Run n jump take zone principles anyway...This Canada Basketball initiative is garbage...Teams not going to Nationals is not about Rules, its about the MONEY!
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Hardfouls



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PostSubject: Re: U15 CHampionships and Rule Changes   Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:58 pm

Money?????? Who is making money off Nationals?
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RHCWDBOT



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PostSubject: money   Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:14 pm

Its about the cost to attend Nationals..This is why the decline in attendance...Money can be sent elsewhere and receive better competition for less then half the cost is what was meant...And without Crazy rule modifications I may add... Rolling Eyes
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Hardfouls



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PostSubject: Re: U15 CHampionships and Rule Changes   Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:03 pm

Well I’m already on the record for my views of attending Nationals versus spending the money on alternate competitions. If we evaluate solely on cost then you’re right. More cost effective alternatives are available.

If you believe Canada should have a National development model for the sport and that every player, coach, referee and fan in Canada should work towards improving that model then other arguments come into play.

I believe preparing for and competing at a national championship tournament is one of the best experiences our athletes can have, regardless of the rules of play. We’ll play the hand we’re dealt then provide feedback to the decision makers.

One thing is for sure; if we’re not at the table we can’t provide that feedback and therefore lose any influence we might have.
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RHCWDBOT



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PostSubject: Believe   Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:52 pm

I believe in bein part of the Natiionals...Just dont dictate different rules and play judge and jury of how the game should be played! No...you are right ...I am not at the Basketball Canada decision table as its an exclusive club but I am very much concerned about NB basketball...
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Hardfouls



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PostSubject: Re: U15 CHampionships and Rule Changes   Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:08 pm

If we agree there needs to be a national development model, then we have to agree that Canada Basketball is responsible for the evolution of that model. What better place for CB to try new ideas for the train-to-train age group than at U15 Nationals. These changes only impact a few hundred athletes for 3-4 month period and CB gets to watch all games in person.

Following Nationals these players will still have the same working knowledge of how to attack zone or to defend ball screens they ended their high school seasons with. No more but no less. However, they should have a better understanding of playing & attacking man-to-man.
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Wombat



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PostSubject: Re: U15 CHampionships and Rule Changes   Mon May 03, 2010 11:16 am

Interesting discussion...
I've heard recently that discussions like this are taking place with coaches across the Country in relation to the rule modifications. I'm hearing that there will be some further discussions at the ED meetings in the spring...just what I'm hearing...

I understand where Hardfouls is coming from on a lot of things. I personally do not like the no ball screen rule, as I stated earlier, I think that coaches will still end up needing to spend time on teaching it as there will be club teams and exhibition games where it will be used. Will Summerfest Refs be told to call illegal ball screens? Has there been any indication on what violation will be called on one?

I really have no issue with the zone rule, but like people said earlier, it will lead to saggy mans and switching everything, so it's sort of a toss up.

I really an confused over the shot clock concept, as it was so heavily sold as the way to go in the past, and now we're changing it back?

Cost is a major factor with Nationals and there can be major arguments both ways. I must say I do have some reservations about U15 Nationals and whether or not we are spending our money in the most efficient way. Perhaps a more regional approach, with more teams/athletes competing would be an option....Not looking to ruffle feathers, but something to be considered.
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CoachDJR



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PostSubject: Re: U15 CHampionships and Rule Changes   Tue May 04, 2010 8:47 pm

I'm sure discussions will continue over what is best for each age group and region. I personally think that 24 is plenty on a clock. I understand people may want more time to execute offensive skills, but it seems to me if you want kids to develop better skills a game is lousy place work on reads and skills. Better practices, better practice habits, more competitive fire beyond jump ball to horn, better coaching will get you much more skilled kids then another 6 seconds on a clock will. It just becomes 6 more seconds that coaches can try to control the game, and kids on the floor can get away with not being able to take their own person or knock down a shot or make a play.

As for the other rules I can appreciate the sentiment behind them but I don't think they end up having the impact you want them too. Unless you've got a unique schedule or situations kids are going to end up defending and attacking zones just about every weekend except the nationals. At nationals your going to end up seeing sagging/switching defenses that act the same as zones and offenses will run handoffs, blur screens and pass and cut off the posts to get similar action anyway.

I think its great that CB is trying to get the focus on individual skills and not tactics even at a u15 national level, I'm just not sure this attempt gets them what they are looking for and not just more headaches.
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Wombat



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PostSubject: Re: U15 CHampionships and Rule Changes   Wed May 05, 2010 11:02 am

I really wonder what the officials think of these rule changes?
I can't imagine they are going to be looking to call illegal ball screens etc...
My question is how are refs going to enforce the no zone rule? With a technical foul? Warning? i dont know...
Will they call ball screens? hand-offs etc as turnovers?
I can't imagine the officials will like these rule changes.....

It's like I've said in the past here. These rule changes in theory may develop skills. However, I think there are too many factors that would weigh against them in order for them to really work in the manner desired.
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obcnamtaf



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PostSubject: Re: U15 CHampionships and Rule Changes   Wed May 05, 2010 11:27 am

...interesting reading to say the least....

hmmm 24 sec vs 30 sec...zones vs no zones...ball screens , no ball screens.....

Despite , the best efforts of the rest of the world...the majority of the top players still are produced in the US...I think if we made a list of the top ten players in the world to have ever played the game or are playing now , the list would be top heavy with Americans....where they play with 35 sec shot clock and no modified rules ( their mini's even use 10ft basket)

Team Canada is dominated by players from Ontario ( no shot clock,federation rules ) and quebec (24 sec shot clock and FIBA rules) almost all of whom play NCAA...

I don't think its the rules we play under that develop players , its the attitudes and work ethic we develop in our athletes , that make them move on to be amoungst the elite....

Whatever rules we use , the most athletic , hardest working , strongest in character and attitude will be our national team players , ball screens or no ball screens...
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Wombat



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PostSubject: Re: U15 CHampionships and Rule Changes   Wed May 05, 2010 11:33 am

Well put...and I agree for the most part.
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Stripes



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PostSubject: Re: U15 CHampionships and Rule Changes   Wed May 05, 2010 4:10 pm

Wombat wrote:
I really wonder what the officials think of these rule changes?
I can't imagine they are going to be looking to call illegal ball screens etc...
My question is how are refs going to enforce the no zone rule? With a technical foul? Warning? i dont know...
Will they call ball screens? hand-offs etc as turnovers?
I can't imagine the officials will like these rule changes.....

It's like I've said in the past here. These rule changes in theory may develop skills. However, I think there are too many factors that would weigh against them in order for them to really work in the manner desired.

I can't speak for all officials but here are my 2 cents.

I'm not sure about the whole ball screen thing. First of all, what constitutes a ball screen? Would there have to be contact? What if you start to set a screen but the dribbler doesn't use it? What will be the penalty?

Some middle schools already use a no zone rule. Normally, it is a warning followed by a technical foul for a second infraction.

What do officials think of these changes is irrelevant as long as it's clear what the rule is. I don't believe that officials should make or suggest rules changes. Our job is to enforce them. Although the people who make the changes don't always write them clearly. You may remember two years ago when FIBA introduced the clear path foul. The writing of that rule in the rule book is very vague. It took us two months into the season before we got a clear interpretation that the rule did not apply if the dribbler began a shot for goal. Are there rules that I don't like? Sure, how about a foul during the throw-in is an automatic unsportsmanlike foul. I have never understood the rationale behind that rule change. So when I call it in a game and the coach complains; I just say I don't make up the rules I just enforce them.



So here is my suggestion to CB, make whatever changes you feel are necessary for the game but keep in mind that the officials will have to enforce these rules. So make it clear.
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CoachDJR



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PostSubject: Re: U15 CHampionships and Rule Changes   Wed May 05, 2010 5:59 pm

obcnamtaf wrote:
...interesting reading to say the least....

hmmm 24 sec vs 30 sec...zones vs no zones...ball screens , no ball screens.....

Despite , the best efforts of the rest of the world...the majority of the top players still are produced in the US...I think if we made a list of the top ten players in the world to have ever played the game or are playing now , the list would be top heavy with Americans....where they play with 35 sec shot clock and no modified rules ( their mini's even use 10ft basket)

Team Canada is dominated by players from Ontario ( no shot clock,federation rules ) and quebec (24 sec shot clock and FIBA rules) almost all of whom play NCAA...

I don't think its the rules we play under that develop players , its the attitudes and work ethic we develop in our athletes , that make them move on to be amoungst the elite....

Whatever rules we use , the most athletic , hardest working , strongest in character and attitude will be our national team players , ball screens or no ball screens...

I do agree with the above comments in regards to the hardest working athletes , most skilled of the gifted elite level athletes moving on.

Though I'm not sure I concur on the Ontario, Quebec, and USA model being the way you get better national teams. If you look at the numbers the states have 200 million people playing basketball where as we have 35 million people living in Canada. Regardless of rules, the pool of gifted elite level athletes they can compete and groom is so much larger. On top of the that the budget they have to play and perform is so much higher at all levels then bball in Canada. In the same way as the US, here in Canada Ontario and Quebec produce more higher calibre athletes because they have more potential higher qaulity athletes compete against each other. They have the genetic pools to produce the size and quality of athlete that are hard working, skilled and character players competing against each other to get better.

Our issue is that we are never going to produce the depth of elite level potential athletes the states does and we cant just fund them (HIGH SCHOOL, AAU, NCAA,USA Basketball,PRO's) to play and play each other and battle it out in a survival with loads of national level calibre people and players waiting on the outside to get in. This means focusing on proper development of ones we have, not letting talent burn out and fall to the wayside, running a common development model with similar rules, skills and concepts so that our under funded program doesn't have to pay for bringing players together often to get them on the same page, and so when we do its apples and apples being used to build a strong product not mashing up apples, banana's and peaches to make the best we can. Common rules, concepts and development model create a culture of the "National Program" country wide in our athletes, programs and decision making rather then trying to make the best kids we can however we want and then thinking we can compete with more organized smaller nations and greater depth of talent in larger ones.

Again I'm not convinced these particular rule changes will have the desired effect but everyone makes mistakes. I do think if we want to build a unique Canadian National Basketball culture then one body (CB) has to be the one makign decisions and being directive in how that is going to go.
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obcnamtaf



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PostSubject: Re: U15 CHampionships and Rule Changes   Mon May 17, 2010 9:34 pm

OK fellas ...quick question . Those rule changes that we've been talking about for the U15 nationals. Are the simply rule modifications made by Canada Basketball for the national tournament , or are they actual changes to FIBA rules for that age group? Which would mean our JV leagues and middle school leagues would have to play by them this coming season.
Just wondering , if anybody knew ?
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Hardfouls



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PostSubject: Re: U15 CHampionships and Rule Changes   Mon May 17, 2010 10:39 pm

Canada Basketball changes just for this tournament.
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pastprimetime



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PostSubject: Re: U15 CHampionships and Rule Changes   Thu May 20, 2010 11:47 am

The rule changes are promoted by the advisory board of Basketball Canada and are about trying to make of senior national team competitive on the world stage. While the US does produce some of the worlds most exciting players and best teams they are not necessarily the most skilled. Canada will never have the huge $$ and the huge numbers of players that help foster this US supremency so we have to look at another model of player developement. With that in mind we look at the rest of the world. The senior programs provide a huge amount of information on where they feel Canada is lagging behind the rest of the world and make suggestions on what they would like to see in player development. The board which has some of the best basketball minds in the country try to put it together and then instruct their employees such as Mike McKay to go forth and make it happen.

No ball screens - it was felt that the rest of the world just simples puts the ball on the floor and attacks the basket better than we do at most positions. By not allowoing ball screens it forces players to become stronger with the ball and develop the skills to beat their opponent either for a basket or to set up a teammate when defense rotates. Yes it forces permiter play by all positions. It also forces players to develop a perimmeter shot at all positions and it can cause all players to learn how to post. It encourages the development of a multipositional player.

Oh yea as we look south to our mighty neighbours we find they may be losing some of their superiority as the rest of the world is catching up. In fact they are altering their philosophy a bit in order to stay in front. The top AAU team over the past three seasons has been a team out of Vancouver and one of the top prep schoold Findlay Prep is loaded with non-US players (last year 2 of their best players were Canadians).

Likewise in NB we have to find a way to compete with the bigger provinces. So things like common curriculums are being used by CP groups across Canada so that all players are having at lest the same skills and principals play being evaluated when they attend these national try-outs, who knows over time this may prove to be the way that smaller markets can level the playing field with the larger.

Just some quick thoughts, have at them
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obcnamtaf



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PostSubject: Re: U15 CHampionships and Rule Changes   Fri May 21, 2010 9:29 am

Interseting stuff primetime...now that I see the rationale , it makes sense...and if we stick to it , maybe things will improve...I know we often use the population debate as our crutch when we can't compete with other countries , but I am not sure if it is a good excuse....
But I do agree ,it is important that basketball develop a basketball model and that it be consistant across the country....however there are things that confuse me ( I don't claim to be no rocket surgeon when it comes to athlete/sport development)
Right now , globally Canada is ranked 19 in basketball , 7th in Baseball , 1st in hockey and 63rd in soccer.....in NB right now , there are more kids playing soccer than basketball , more playing basketball than hockey and baseball is 4th in regsitrations....yet baseball and hockey (in NB ,and it is probably similar in other provinces )have produced more top level (pro and minor pro) than basketball and soccer.
What are they doing in their development programs that basketball and soccer are not.....I know this sounds like a dumb question....but if population is a factor shouldn't the sports with more kids playin be producing more elite players....
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pastprimetime



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PostSubject: Re: U15 CHampionships and Rule Changes   Fri May 21, 2010 4:22 pm

I agree population should not be the major reason for success or not except... The rural areas do not produce as many top basketball players as the larger centers (there are exceptions notably Grand Manan). In the rural areas the kids and there parents are involved in a mutiutde of activities, the same kids and parents seem to appear at every event. (exception Grand MAnan, where basketball is king). Larger centers seem to have had minor systems for a longer period and there minor system appear to be more consistent in the volunteerism, leading to a more structured developmental structure and possibly more slective participation on the part of the kids.

The elete kids in these programs also generally attend schools that have the stronger basketball programs. Both the school and minor programs tend to play against each other and travel to play top competition in both NS and Maine. These kids just are forced to play at a higher skill level through the team and can execute skills at a quicker pace thus leading to better basketball players.

Again this is not a slam against smaller or less developed programs but a postive comment to the areas that have created this structure. There are more volunteers that have played at a higher level, more parents who have played at a higher level and thereby more understanding of what it takes to be a player at a hgiher level in the larger centers. Again exception Grand Manan and some other smaller locals that have had a strong basketball presence over the years (Peti and Ron Hooper, HArvey And McMullin), yet a large number of there top players have stayed on the island and have produced children there where as other communities.

To this end they have found in tennis that a large number of top players have come the same small villages in the former Russia where there is a difinte lack of facilities, howevver they have a great coach who has remained in the town for ever developing the talent. Consistency in coaching is another factor.

Just some random ramblings of an old timer
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Hardfouls



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PostSubject: Re: U15 CHampionships and Rule Changes   Fri May 21, 2010 5:27 pm

I know this is a little off topic but ....I think population is a huge factor. For the USA they can have a flawed system and still produce great players. The list of great players from the USA ruined by their youth development system is endless. For countries like Canada we don't have the luxury to make mistakes or turn players away.

Density of population also has a huge impact. Players in large cities are more apt to play against other great players more often. If you look at the "big four" at Nationals each year (ON, QC, AB, BC) you'll notice that they all have at least one major center with a million people.

Demographics is also very important. Atlantic Canada is full of people of Scottish, Irish and French decent. Not exactly the ideal gene pool to produce world class basketball players. If we had more Swedish, Dutch or Nigerian descendants things might be different.

But at the end of the day, its really all about the development system. The Dutch National team doesn't exactly strike fear in the hearts of the basketball world despite having a taller population. But one thing is certain, we can't copy the american development model. We need a model that accounts for the type of athlete we can produce in this country and addresses the challenges of having a relatively small population spread out across such a large country.
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Slam Dunk



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PostSubject: Re: U15 CHampionships and Rule Changes   Fri May 21, 2010 6:10 pm

Grand Manan where basketball is king???
Their minor baseball program may take exception. In recent years 5 islanders have played on a national championship team. 2 are currently playing baseball in CIS. 2 in NCAA and 9 have represented NB at national events. They just play basketball on the island while waiting for baseball season.
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