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 Who's qualified for the BC's? All 64 teams decided.

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FVRox



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PostSubject: Re: Who's qualified for the BC's? All 64 teams decided.   Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:26 am

I'm going to take a differing view - that this was the correct decision, but one where the process was flawed because a lack of transparency (I know that's shocking). Right decision, in the wrong year.

We all have to get our heads around the Fraser Valley is the power region, & not by a little. Where other 4A regions are getting worse or fading into obscurity, the FV is getting more powerful. Look at the Island & the Okanagan, other than the power programs of KSS & Oak Bay, most teams aren't competitive. What would Island #2, Cowichan Secondary be in the Fraser Valley, maybe 12-14?. OK #2, Mount Boucherie might've been slightly better. Same with Howe Sound.

You mock the BC's by calling it the Fraser Valley Invitational - it is the defacto Fraser Valley Invitational, & should be recognized as such. Hell, it is even hosted in the Fraser Valley. In truth, there are only 5 non-FV teams in the Top 16 provincially - KSS, Oak Bay, SWC, Kits & St Georges. If we wanted the best, this tournament would likely have 10-11 FV teams. But we should have regional representation for a provincial tournament, & yes we should give regional winners some love in seeding, but we also want the best basketball, the most competitive basketball represented at the provincials. The Fraser Valley deserves an exception, or 3.

This is not going to change. The growth of the game, the power is always going to FV.

What does that additional exception or criteria look like...?

If I'm the FV, & I have the power region, & I'm hosting the tournament - I will have one of the Top 3 seeds, period. End of story. Given that seeds 1,4,5 are on one side & 2,3,6 are on the other - IF I'm not #1 overall, I must be no lower than #3, & I must be on the opposite side of the draw as #1. This makes sense. Once again, FV is the power region & they host the tournament. Does this not make sense.

All the committee needed to do was effectively communicate this to it's members. Preferably before the seedings were announced. Or before the season started.

1. This wasn't a FV vs FV issue. Oak Bay#3 vs Yale #14, & Tammy #4 vs North Peace #13 - was all good
2. This wasn't a regional winner issue. Both were regional winners
3. This wasn't a head to head issue. Oak Bay was 2-0 vs Tamanawis

So given that Tamanawis was not #1, nor #2 overall, they correctly gave the highest seeded FV team the 3rd seed, to ensure the FV was not on same side as this years #1 - Kelowna. Makes sense.

Maybe this was the correct decision, just for next year (when they add a 6th criteria to the Seeding Guidelines).

One last look at Ebe's post on Ranking Guidelines to clarify

Just so everyone can see I have listed below our association's ranking guidelines:
BCHSBBA RANKING GUIDELINES FOR PROVINCIAL TOURNAMENTS

1. Teams from the same zone shall not play against each other in the first round unless this is not possible based on the numbers of berths or if it will negatively distort the true rankings. Per above: If Oak Bay was #3, they could still play #14 Yale, & if Tammy was #4 it could still play non-FV North Peace. All good here.

2. Order of finish in zone tournaments. It is preferential but not mandatory that teams are ranked in order of zone tournament placing. Both placed 1st in region, so no reason to drop Oak Bay from #3. All good here.

3. Zone winners will be the top ranked team in their zone and may be receive a higher overall ranking as a result of winning their zone championship. Same as above. All good here for Oak Bay at #3

4. Head to head competition between teams if they have played against each other may also be considered. Yup, all good here. Oak Bay beat Tamanawis twice. That's 2-0. Are you following me. Oak Bay still #3

5. Using the official BCHSBBA rankings
. Yup, just looked - Oak Bay is #3

Number 6 should be: Given the strength of the FV region (& host of the championship), independent of head to head games between the Top FV team & any non-FV team / Regional winner, the FV champion can not be ranked lower than #3 in the seedings. Given this criteria, with KSS #1, Tamanawis will get the #3 seed, Oak Bay will be pushed to #4

This new world is different. If you are non-FV, even if you are ranked 1,2,3,or 4 - you will never play an easy game, ever again. Chances are next year, given all their Gr 10-11 talent, it will again be KSS, Oak Bay, Tammy or Grove, & likely Kits or St Georges in the top 4 regions. If you are not in the FV, and you are Top 4 - it's time to embrace playing a FV #8, 7 or 6 seed - it's inevitable, & it's correct decision.

Once again, the correct decision - for 2017.

** Let's remember this is a process issue, & not representative of any particular team. The tournament will be outstanding, with Day 1 being the most competitive by far as I can remember. My "must see" games are 3:30 - Yale vs Oak Bay, 5:15 - Churchill vs Panorama Ridge & 8:15 - St Georges vs Holy Cross. All of those games could be "first one to 100 wins". Let the games begin.
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RockNation



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PostSubject: Re: Who's qualified for the BC's? All 64 teams decided.   Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:19 pm

It's about making it fair. There is no way in hell, this draw is fair for alot of teams including FV. They should have scraped the 1st rule that's it. Then it all would have made sense. The committee each year decide what is fair. There are many teams and people upset with this draw so then how could it be fair. Only team happy is Tamanawis. Poor Terry Fox and Panarama Ridge really the committee honestly believes they are the 15 and 16 seeds. Really Kelowna kicks the crap out of everyone and gets Terry Fox not North Peace. Tamanawis loses twice to Oak Bay in Vancouver and gets a higher seed. All the committee had to do is get rid of the #1 rule which makes it unfair in any year. Not to play each other because your from the same zone is retarded, and bias. It was so simple to do the right thing! And they chose not too!
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RockNation



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PostSubject: Re: Who's qualified for the BC's? All 64 teams decided.   Thu Mar 10, 2016 2:30 pm

Wow 1st day at BC's was a shocker to the system. Congrats to Panorama ridge on a great game plan. But lets be honest is Panorama really a 15th seed team which SWC so desperately earned hell no. Panorama has been as high as number 6 in the province. They have 3 guys that can really play. Its the unfortunate event that i was fear full with this unfair draw. Obviously favoring the FV because of 1 stupid god awful rule. That no one from any zone can play each other. Hence SWC is screwed out of a provincial final. Yes you have to play, yes you have to win, but the point of the 1st rd is to get your feet under you, relax and play a team you are supposed to beat and actually be a 15 seed. if the team was actually a 15 seed then SWC would have never lost. Panorama played unbelievable and SWC not so much but these games should still be won even if Churchill is off. Any other game that was extremely close was the Oak Bay vs Yale game. Oak Bay looked nervous but played incredible defense to win the game 64-54 but was this by no means a given win. Yale defending 4A champions you know where not going to go away. But again this should have never happened. Yale is not a 13 seed team. They were ranked as high as 2nd in the province but more like an 8-10 seed provincially. So how do they become a 13 seed exactly same stupid rule number 1. Oak Bay and survived, while Tamanawis breezes thru there 1st rd game by 40 points to an actually based 16 seeded team, but Oak bay beat them twice in the regular season, in Vancouver. So what is fair here. Hmmm, Terry fox gives Kelowna a bit of scare which should have never happened. As Terry fox is not a 16 seed team. The problem with this draw is 1st rd games the bench is supposed to play some minutes at the provincials and deep into the bench and this was not possible as these games where to close and and upset. I am sure the 4A committee has learned its lesson in that this draw was awful for many reasons and they should of made the right decision instead of going by the rules set out espeically since FV had 8 teams. We all know next year the rule will be changed but I feel for teams that battled all year to get the proper seeds to be screwed by a committee of adults who were only thinking for themselves and not the kids. If you left it up to the kids to make the decision it would have been the right one. Heres to change next year and a fair draw for all. Thanks Howard for true opinions and ranking during the year. Howard should be the one that sets the draw as he knows what he is talking about.
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ebe



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PostSubject: Re: Who's qualified for the BC's? All 64 teams decided.   Thu Mar 10, 2016 2:43 pm

I have no problem with a debate and argument over the draw because that is the nature of draws for tournaments. Everybody has an opportunity to make their case and argue over the draw as there are a wide variety of opinions about this topic. However to make the following statement:
but I feel for teams that battled all year to get the proper seeds to be screwed by a committee of adults who were only thinking for themselves and not the kids.
This is completely out of line. I personally know the people who worked very hard to do the draw and to accuse them of only thinking of themselves and screwing over kids is flat out wrong and completely uncalled for.
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RockNation



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PostSubject: Re: Who's qualified for the BC's? All 64 teams decided.   Thu Mar 10, 2016 3:55 pm

Ok Ebe, i agree a little harsh on the words. i apologize for that. As i am sure the committee worked hard on this. I have been part of many committees and i know the work that goes into it. But you can't tell me that this draw is remotely fair. I know there is rules but the committee could have broken the rules told everyone this year that teams will have to play each other regardless of zone. Thats the only thing that makes any sense. Whether it is this draw or any draw. Ask anybody in the basketball committee if Panorama Ridge is a 15 seed, Ask if Terry fox is 16 seed. Those in themselves are head scratchers. The answer would be flat out NO. Both are top ten 10 teams 100%. So your telling me a room full of knowledgeable, highly educated adults could not figure this out. Then you take the fact Oak Bay clearly beat Tamanawis twice in the year yet because they won the FV they get the higher seed. Makes no sense. You can say wherever you want and thats why we debate but it just does not make any sense how this happened. If 100 people were to vote on this draw at least 75% would say its unfair and needs to be changed. So i am not sure why this did not happen in the war room to make the most fair draw possible regardless of what the rules said. Rules are made to be changed and I know they will after the fact but it could have happened right in the war room.
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ebe



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PostSubject: Re: Who's qualified for the BC's? All 64 teams decided.   Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:32 pm

Appreciate the apology RockNation thank you. The rules for seeding were put in place by the coaches and need to be respected. At the same time the rules do allow for exceptions and for teams from the same zone to play in the 1st round but this years committee decided against it which I agree is more than fair to criticize. I am sure we will have some good discussion around this topic at this years AGM.
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RockNation



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PostSubject: Re: Who's qualified for the BC's? All 64 teams decided.   Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:20 pm

Check this out. I guess I was right brutal. Can you believe this crap. Really, tail between your legs, unbelievable

http://blogs.theprovince.com/2016/03/11/draw-seeding-procedure-sure-to-be-a-hot-topic-as-bc-high-school-hoop-coaches-meet-saturday/
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