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 Will anyone challenger Tobique Valley in AA Girls action?

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39forever



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PostSubject: Re: Will anyone challenger Tobique Valley in AA Girls action?   Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:55 am

halfhobbit wrote:
celtic wrote:
hoosier fanatic wrote:
If RNS is able to get their star player Anna Simonds back who is out for almost the remainder of the season n time they could give tobique a run for their money because she was hurt the game before they played tobique so RNS wasnt at full strength

It's a good thing to have faith in your team but Anna would make very little differance against this TV team. They are just way too good! I believe you will see GM VS TV at Harbour. Although Veysey can pull some amazing wins out, i just don't believe he has the staff this time around. I would have like to have seen TV gone AAA this year. I can't blame them for wanting another title as small schools seldom get this kind of talent but on the other side of things, they just are not challenged in AA this year.

This would have been a good year for them to go AAA, except when you move up you are up for 2 years. I doubt next year they'd be able to compete in AAA. They'll probably still be a good AA team, though. It would be interesting to see how they would do against top AAA teams, I think they'd do very well.
I don't think you have to commit to 2 years when you move up. The Grand Manan boys moved up a few years ago, played the one year, and moved back down the next year. It would have been a good year for TV to do the same, but I understand their thought process.
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baller24



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PostSubject: Re: Will anyone challenger Tobique Valley in AA Girls action?   Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:35 am

You can move up whenever you would like. However; it would have to benefit the NBIAA somehow. Some hockey teams in the North play in the AAA all season long then go AA in provincials. Does not make much sense to me. Just depends on who you are when dealing with the NBIAA.
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20yearcoach



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PostSubject: Re: Will anyone challenger Tobique Valley in AA Girls action?   Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:19 pm

you can only move up when the NBIAA agrees and that is few and far between - you should be able to move up and down as you like - if you know youy are going to have a strong program or you know you are going to have a weak program you should be able to move accordingly. If soemone moves down and wins it all and blows everyone you should be sanctioned. I do beleive that the principales and AD's would not move anyone up or down if they did not think it would benefit their program. The NBIAA needs to start looking around to see what other provinces/organization do and how thye work.
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baller24



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PostSubject: Re: Will anyone challenger Tobique Valley in AA Girls action?   Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:44 pm

It is quite a corrupt organization at times for sure!
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obcnamtaf



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PostSubject: Re: Will anyone challenger Tobique Valley in AA Girls action?   Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:06 pm

gotta read the rules guys.
Any school can apply to move up a division and if you do , now you must do it for two years. This rule changed only a few years ago , ( long after grand manan did it .)
When schools apply to move up it is seldom refused. Not many schools do. In JV , if there are not 8 teams registered in a sport then the remaining teams need to move up ( AA to AAA ) in order to play. (another new regulation )
Schools can apply to play down but only when it their first year with a team in that sport. ESN got to do that 3 yrs ago when they started a varsity program in boys basketball. This is also a two year move now. But after that they must play in their own division ,like they are doing this year. The only exception to this rule was two yrs ago when BHS was given permission to play down and rebuild their program , after the accident. That was also for two years but they applied to move back up ( and were given the OK )after one.
As for a system , where a team can apply to play up or down based on how good their coaches think they are ? That's totally ridiculous . Can you imagine all the "banner hungry " schools in NB , sandbagging to stay down and play against smaller weaker schools so they can win a banner and not have to play anybody good. The problem is the only way we measure the success of our teams is by the banners we win.
Was DRHS , who played AAA last year , and was barely a top 8 team ,(they finished fourth in the northeast AAA conference ) not a successful team ? Were they not a good team . Did their players develop more? Are they less of a team because they don't have a banner. Their first year playin up , they were top four in AAA ( lost to WHS in OT in a regional final ) Is that team less successful because they didn't get to the AC...they had a great year and played some great and exciting ball....is that not a good thing.
As for what other provinces do...NS has a 4 tier system based on school population.
PEI has a unique system. The high schools play vs each other during the season and based on results , at the end of the year , the top 4 schools play for a provincial title in the top tier , the next best 4 play for a title in the second tier, and the remaining 5 schools play for a title in the 3rd tier. Easy to do when you only have 13 high schools in your province.
Some states have a 3 ,or 4 or 5 tier system based on school population with no movement flexibility...some do their classification by sport...ie all the schools that play basketball are divided in to tiers based on population. Thus you could have 3 tiers in soccer and 4 in basketball , based on number of schools and school populations.
Ironically in the state of Indiana , the last state to bring in a classification system , found that when they went to a classification system , it really hurt their state high school basketball programs financially. Instead of Hickory High playing the next school up the road , where everybody would go to watch cause they were neighboring rivals, and everybody body followed their progress. Now Hickory would have to travel half way across the state to the next school their size to play. A school nobody nknew about , no rivalry , longer travel and thus fans lost interest.
To them under the old rules , winning a regional , or sectional championship was as big an accomplishment as winning a state championship.
Trying to find a program that makes everybody competitive and everybody happy is impossible , because in every 8 team league , or 8 team tournament , someone is gonna finish 8th....we are trying to find a syatem where everyone can win...not gonna happen , for every winner there has got to be losers...so two tiers , 3 tiers , 4 tiers...doesn't matter , some teams will be better than others ( often a lot better ) doesn't matter what sport.....we need to stop measuring success by what we get for it and start measuring it by what we become because of it....
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baller24



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PostSubject: Re: Will anyone challenger Tobique Valley in AA Girls action?   Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:31 pm

Wow, you have done some research into this. I agree with a lot (most of your points). But... the NBIAA might have those rules in writing but that does not mean they always follow them. I have been around this for a while now. There is usually a "special circumstance" clause they can throw out there to do whatever they want. It is too bad because we are dealing with kids here.
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20yearcoach



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PostSubject: Re: Will anyone challenger Tobique Valley in AA Girls action?   Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:48 pm

I agree the rules are in place but the NBIAA and the executive make decisions based on what is best for them not best for the students or what the rest of the NBIAA Principles organization (principles/ADs) want. Do you not all remember the decision that was made last year regarding tiering and ROberts Rules of Motion - oh and now the NBIAA constituation supersedes Roberts Rules of Motion - making it up as they go along.
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baller24



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PostSubject: Re: Will anyone challenger Tobique Valley in AA Girls action?   Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:01 pm

I agree 100%. That vote was a rediculous joke.
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PostSubject: Re: Will anyone challenger Tobique Valley in AA Girls action?   Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:02 pm

Although I am not aware of the events the superceeded the vote that you refer to I do know that organisations will formalize a detailed constitution and in the specific articles is wil state something like "in normal committe/membership meetings the "Roberts Rules of Order" shall be adhered to but not entirly or absolutely as to allow for the proper order and flow of the meeting".

Depends on what is written in the constitution.
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20yearcoach



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PostSubject: Re: Will anyone challenger Tobique Valley in AA Girls action?   Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:06 pm

The NBIAA did not allow a motion to be brought forth because the way the motion was put forth did not follow Roberts Rules of Motion - and the AGM was dictated by Roberts Rules of Motion - which caused the tiering vote to have to go to a extraordinary meeting - which the nbiaa then asked the principles to vote on it and a non vote went as a no vote - but once the Executive meet this fall they are now saying that the NBIAA constitution supersedes RROM. As I said before making it up as they go along.......
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obcnamtaf



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PostSubject: Re: Will anyone challenger Tobique Valley in AA Girls action?   Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:08 pm

hmmmmm...interesting...so your saying a vote this year , to go back to a three tier system , can be over ruled by the executive of the NBIAA , ???? don't think so.....from everyone I have talked to...we will be back to 3 tiers next year...however the folks I have talked to are mostly coaches and teachers , not prinicpals....and it is mostly principals at the agm now.....so who knows...
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baller24



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PostSubject: Re: Will anyone challenger Tobique Valley in AA Girls action?   Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:49 pm

It was over ruled this year by the NBIAA. The principals/AD's voted 73-6 in favour of 4 tiers, 2 AA and 2 AAA. Then in a second vote, which was sent to principals in June (and most ignored), it was declined. The fact is the people who know and wanted change already voted and it was quite clear what they wanted teh NBIAA to do. Then then NBIAA decided they did not want the change so they sent out an email to principals to answer. ....

In June principals do not have time for this stuff. This is why they have their AD's, but the AD's could not vote on this issue. Which is rediculous because they already at the AGM. Every principal who did not vote was counted as a "NO".
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PostSubject: Re: Will anyone challenger Tobique Valley in AA Girls action?   Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:05 pm

Sounds to me like it is time for a new broom to sweep clean
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Rudas



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PostSubject: Re: Will anyone challenger Tobique Valley in AA Girls action?   Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:37 pm

Were you at the meeting baller24?
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Coachmac



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PostSubject: Re: Will anyone challenger Tobique Valley in AA Girls action?   Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:39 pm

baller24 wrote:
It was over ruled this year by the NBIAA. The principals/AD's voted 73-6 in favour of 4 tiers, 2 AA and 2 AAA. Then in a second vote, which was sent to principals in June (and most ignored), it was declined. The fact is the people who know and wanted change already voted and it was quite clear what they wanted teh NBIAA to do. Then then NBIAA decided they did not want the change so they sent out an email to principals to answer. ....

In June principals do not have time for this stuff. This is why they have their AD's, but the AD's could not vote on this issue. Which is rediculous because they already at the AGM. Every principal who did not vote was counted as a "NO".

I think we should count up the number of teams and then go with that many tiers. That way, everyone could win a banner. Then when they get to the real world, they will be ready to fit in. Oh wait, the real world doesn't work like that. My bad!!
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Coachmac



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PostSubject: Re: Will anyone challenger Tobique Valley in AA Girls action?   Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:45 pm

baller24 wrote:
It is quite a corrupt organization at times for sure!

I will be the first to admit I am not a fan of the NBIAA, but I have a problem with you calling people corrupt without a) not presenting any proof b) not saying it where they can defend themselves or even possibly know you are making the claim.

There is a big difference between being corrupt and incompetent. And before anyone goes off stating I said the NBIAA is incompetent, I am not saying that, either. I would just have less of a problem with someone expressing their opinion regarding what they feel is a persons competency.
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Coachmac



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PostSubject: Re: Will anyone challenger Tobique Valley in AA Girls action?   Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:46 pm

obcnamtaf wrote:
gotta read the rules guys.
Any school can apply to move up a division and if you do , now you must do it for two years. This rule changed only a few years ago , ( long after grand manan did it .)
When schools apply to move up it is seldom refused. Not many schools do. In JV , if there are not 8 teams registered in a sport then the remaining teams need to move up ( AA to AAA ) in order to play. (another new regulation )
Schools can apply to play down but only when it their first year with a team in that sport. ESN got to do that 3 yrs ago when they started a varsity program in boys basketball. This is also a two year move now. But after that they must play in their own division ,like they are doing this year. The only exception to this rule was two yrs ago when BHS was given permission to play down and rebuild their program , after the accident. That was also for two years but they applied to move back up ( and were given the OK )after one.
As for a system , where a team can apply to play up or down based on how good their coaches think they are ? That's totally ridiculous . Can you imagine all the "banner hungry " schools in NB , sandbagging to stay down and play against smaller weaker schools so they can win a banner and not have to play anybody good. The problem is the only way we measure the success of our teams is by the banners we win.
Was DRHS , who played AAA last year , and was barely a top 8 team ,(they finished fourth in the northeast AAA conference ) not a successful team ? Were they not a good team . Did their players develop more? Are they less of a team because they don't have a banner. Their first year playin up , they were top four in AAA ( lost to WHS in OT in a regional final ) Is that team less successful because they didn't get to the AC...they had a great year and played some great and exciting ball....is that not a good thing.
As for what other provinces do...NS has a 4 tier system based on school population.
PEI has a unique system. The high schools play vs each other during the season and based on results , at the end of the year , the top 4 schools play for a provincial title in the top tier , the next best 4 play for a title in the second tier, and the remaining 5 schools play for a title in the 3rd tier. Easy to do when you only have 13 high schools in your province.
Some states have a 3 ,or 4 or 5 tier system based on school population with no movement flexibility...some do their classification by sport...ie all the schools that play basketball are divided in to tiers based on population. Thus you could have 3 tiers in soccer and 4 in basketball , based on number of schools and school populations.
Ironically in the state of Indiana , the last state to bring in a classification system , found that when they went to a classification system , it really hurt their state high school basketball programs financially. Instead of Hickory High playing the next school up the road , where everybody would go to watch cause they were neighboring rivals, and everybody body followed their progress. Now Hickory would have to travel half way across the state to the next school their size to play. A school nobody nknew about , no rivalry , longer travel and thus fans lost interest.
To them under the old rules , winning a regional , or sectional championship was as big an accomplishment as winning a state championship.
Trying to find a program that makes everybody competitive and everybody happy is impossible , because in every 8 team league , or 8 team tournament , someone is gonna finish 8th....we are trying to find a syatem where everyone can win...not gonna happen , for every winner there has got to be losers...so two tiers , 3 tiers , 4 tiers...doesn't matter , some teams will be better than others ( often a lot better ) doesn't matter what sport.....we need to stop measuring success by what we get for it and start measuring it by what we become because of it....

Nice post.
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Coachmac



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PostSubject: Re: Will anyone challenger Tobique Valley in AA Girls action?   Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:48 pm

I appear to have gone on a little mini-rant there.....lol. I knew I shouldn't have run with the girls, tonight. Sucked all the oxygen from my brain.
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CoachDJR



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PostSubject: Re: Will anyone challenger Tobique Valley in AA Girls action?   Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:31 pm

A bunch of issues to respond to here:

- TVHS is dominating so far, but coming into the season did not expect to be as deep as they are. The inability to field a JV team ended up being a big asset to the varsity team helping to overcome their single greatest area of concern.

- An injury to Goodine/Oulette could be a huge difference maker so lets not give them a banner yet.

- I believe the 2nd proposal sent out by the NBIAA had some differences from the one proposed at the meeting (specifically that during the trial period schools could only be divided by school size and not apply to move up or down)

- Any decision the NBIAA makes at this point will be made with reference to all their remaining sports not just basketball. They will also want a 1 size fits all solution for sports and claim management issues, (which they can reasonably argue when they only get substantial feeback from all stakeholders at one meeting at year).

- My personal feeling continues to be, that as much as I appreciate the wide variety of possible solutions and wishes of many schools (non of which i feel more strongly about then others) the NBIAA needs to put in some safeguards to allow schools and programs to make long term decisions. Schools/Coaches shoudl be able to know with some certainty what level their 7th graders are going to play at throughout their careers, and that it won't change from grades 7-8-9 and then 10-11-12 or god forbid 3 or more times in a players career. This not knowing who and what level you will play at or could play at year in and year out is frustrating and makes collaborating with minor programs a huge hassell for small or medium sized schools/regions.

- TVHS can destroy everybody, Sugarloaf can dominate the boys side for 3+ years if they want. Schools who want to compete can do as much as these schools and kids do, or they won't. I know that there are factors beyond their control money in their budgets, or willingness of kids/parents/communities/schools to commit time or resources and in reality even some travel concerns for regions when you combine these other factors. You either overcome things or you don't.

- FYI if nothing else I find it ironic that the schools who pushed for this change intially (Tantramar?) have not benifited with banners, but the schools who seem the biggest advocates for change back are schools who have missed out on banners or been less successful as a result of the changes. I do think they have good arguments about involvement, and meaningful play but I think there is some part of their credibilty that gets questioned by the position of the schools who seem to be most vocal.
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baller24



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PostSubject: Re: Will anyone challenger Tobique Valley in AA Girls action?   Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:35 am

Hey gang, my apologies. I kind of strayed away from the real topic here, which is basketball. Should not have started ranting about the ineffectiveness of the NBIAA.
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