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 Long Term Athlete Development

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CoachDJR



Posts : 736
Join date : 2010-01-22
Location : Southern NB

PostSubject: Long Term Athlete Development   Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:23 pm

I believe that this site could be a great tool for discussion and promotion of basketball in this province. Canada Basketball has produced a long term athlete development model. It identifies a primary purpose and goal of:

"The mission was described as:
2020 “A World Leader in Basketball”
Leading a unified basketball community to engage all
in quality experiences and drive international success.
The priorities were to:
- Unify the basketball community
- Develop an enduring economic model
- Build a dynamic developmental infrastructure by improving
coaching at all levels by developing a system based on principles,
which encompass participation and excellence. "

For a province of our size we punch well above our weight (population) class in terms of the numbers of high level athletes we have produced over the years. I think that we can do an even better job by becoming a more unified community.

On this site I see a lot of discussion of who is better then who. We've got 10 different threads about top 10's broken down by division, gender, junior/senior varsity. We seem very focused on recognizing as many athletes as possible for what they are achieving currently at levels who are well below the "Training to Win" level. I don't see a lot of discussion over how they are developed or what we could be doing to make them better.

While we have Centre for Performance and provincial programs in this province, the primary training ground for all of our athletes to prepare them for futures in basketball and as life long athletes continues to be high school and community sport. I see BNB making rule changes to support basketball development. These changes directly impact some tactics that coaches and teams have used (that are perfectly legal basketball plays) but are being made unacceptable because winning at those levels is not as important as a unified vision for skill development.

What changes could we be making or promoting at our level to better develop high school athletes? What discussions do we need to have to create a basketball community focused province wide on producing the best athletes we've ever had? How can we make our basketball community about sharing resources and improving the level of basketball, without sacrificing the rivalries and competitive spirit in the games that so many people love? What supports or resources do we need to create a collaborative culture skill development, rather than a community/school based belief on winning or focusing on a few individuals? Do we need to discuss fixing/improving our basketball culture or is the general consensus that it is fine?

FYI: if you are one of the people who think it is fine. Know there is a big disconnect between the skill sets and speed at which they can be executed top level coaches (provincial, national, CCAA/CIS) are expecting and the actual abilities of that a majority of our kids are being trained to perform. How can we get these two expectations closer, what do we need to do to get more co-operation and collaboration coaching, playing and performance wise in this province?
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student



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PostSubject: Re: Long Term Athlete Development   Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:39 pm

finally a thread worth reading.
1- 2 paid coaches to come into the program to evaluate identify and recruit the players. 1 each for girls and boys, with no political/family/city ties. time to end the favoritism. screw bnb its too political
2- major thrust during the off season from last week of feb til first week of sept
3- get the players out of prov to compete
that's my start, probably more to follow
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AA Fan



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PostSubject: Re: Long Term Athlete Development   Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:11 pm

I agree that there is way to much talk about who is better players . The problem is that we are comparing players that do not even play the same positions . I beleive as long as we continue with the AA AAA leagues and the mismatches that occur the problem will not end . When moncton high has to play Riverview twice or Nackawic has to play Tobique twice it is hard for everyone involved to try to develope the skill and drive that is needed for the next level . I am not sure what the answer is but we need to find a better way to get teams ranked and playing against more even compitition. You cannot improve unless you are challenged or if you are over matched. Also by being forced to play a home and home in your division you are restricting the teams from finding better match ups. How many games are Riverview forced to play ??? How many games is Picard in AAA or Goodine in AA set or her floor time cut back because of the compitition level . I am using the girls as examples only because that is who I am familiar with but the same thing goes on in the males . Recently I have seen alot of talk about dunking when you are ahead . That is not the players fault that is the systems fault for even having that game !!!
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Slam Dunk



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PostSubject: Re: Long Term Athlete Development   Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:35 pm

The NBIAA clearly states in their mission statement they are providing a rereational experience for " fun, fairplay, and sportsmanship."
The elite hockey players are not depending on the NBIAA for their development!
Baseball players the same!
Curling!
Golf!
The list goes on, yet when it comes to basketball these high school kids are constantly being belittled for not working on their game, playing year round, and on and on. Maybe the majority of kids are playing for fun and believe their future is based on education, not athletics, and maybe it is the coaches, and not the kids that do not get it.
The NBIAA needs to improve lots of things, "fairplay" being one of them. Should Campobello with a graduation class of 5 be in competition with Sugarloaf with a graduation class of ___?
On the girls side should GM and RNS with graduation classes in the low twenties be in competion with TVHS with a graduation class of ___?
Oh I know you will say these communities need to improve their programs, but personally it is my belief that the more people you have to pick from, the better your program will be.

It is the responsibility of Basket Ball NB. to step up to the plate and develop basketball not the NBIAA. BNB has the reputation of being nothing but a money grab,offering one tournament in the spring and then have their hands out once again in the summer for the kids who are politically chosen to represent our basketball power house.
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CoachDJR



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PostSubject: Re: Long Term Athlete Development   Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:46 pm

I'll respond to some of the isssue brought up here and see if we can keep some of this conversation going:

1. ON the boys side Campo graduates 8-15 kids a year, and SSHS graduates 80. 2 years ago when Campo made it to the finals against Bathurst, SSHS was in their section at provincials but lost to RNS before getting a chance to play Campo. One year Campo is better, last Year Sugarloaf was and is again this year and it suddenly not fair that they have to play?

GM graduates about 30. No idea what RNS graduates but they can recruit and mandate kids play and practice daily so I've got trouble feeling bad for them. TVHS graduates 40-50. So even in the old 3 tier system they would all be in the same division anyway.

I don't see size as as big an issue as interest and commitment of program. Campo who is arguably the smallest school in the province right now is still a top 10 AA team and would be a lot of weak and average AAA schools.


2. I hear this comment about BNB being political. I can't speak to their meetings and policy making, but I know most of the coaches who have coached provincially the last few years and the coaches who make up selection committees for teams. Political is not a word I would use to describe most of them. I don't think summer teams are near as political as people seem to think. I haven't seen many kids on provincial teams that I could say didn't deserve to be there. I'm willing to be proven wrong if someone has a different opinion and can give my some examples from say the last 6-8 years.

3. I would agree that BNB has to do more, and the NBIAA has an obligation to sport as a whole not elite basketball development. BUT: When you espouse fair play and fun for everyone though, and then make the FINAL 12/FInal 8 your showcase event of the year you're really encouraging elite level play too. The rest of the sports in my mind were community or regional sports that came to schools, while basketball has a tradition of being a school sport. I don't think High school Basketball and Elite club basketball on large scale can co-exist in this province.

4. I like the idea of paid coaches travelling and evaluating and improving coaching. How receptive would people be? If people already think it a cash grab how does adding more paid positions help?
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baller24



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PostSubject: Re: Long Term Athlete Development   Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:31 pm

Our boys and girls will have a hard time developing into elite basketball players just by playing high school. The NBIAA has too many restrictions, # of games, length of seasons.

There is not much on the recreation side of things when you have a scoreboard. It is great that lots of kids get to play some sports but in the end we are still keeping score.
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Coachmac



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PostSubject: Re: Long Term Athlete Development   Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:59 am

I think everyone missed the point of the original post, and judging by the comments I don't believe you read the plan put out by Basketball Canada. It is VERY good.
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20yearcoach



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PostSubject: Re: Long Term Athlete Development   Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:59 am

CoachDJR wrote:
I'll respond to some of the isssue brought up here and see if we can keep some of this conversation going:

1. ON the boys side Campo graduates 8-15 kids a year, and SSHS graduates 80. 2 years ago when Campo made it to the finals against Bathurst, SSHS was in their section at provincials but lost to RNS before getting a chance to play Campo. One year Campo is better, last Year Sugarloaf was and is again this year and it suddenly not fair that they have to play?

GM graduates about 30. No idea what RNS graduates but they can recruit and mandate kids play and practice daily so I've got trouble feeling bad for them. TVHS graduates 40-50. So even in the old 3 tier system they would all be in the same division anyway.

GM graduates 30 a year?? RNS has a graduating class of between 40-60/year - have you seen who they recruit???It sure as hell is not basketball players - hockey, hockey, hockey - they do mandate sports but what is wrong with that - i feel bad when they are three weeks behind other schools b/c they are still playing soccer/field hockey - mandated sports is a good and bad thing.

I don't see size as as big an issue as interest and commitment of program. Campo who is arguably the smallest school in the province right now is still a top 10 AA team and would be a lot of weak and average AAA schools.


2. I hear this comment about BNB being political. I can't speak to their meetings and policy making, but I know most of the coaches who have coached provincially the last few years and the coaches who make up selection committees for teams. Political is not a word I would use to describe most of them. I don't think summer teams are near as political as people seem to think. I haven't seen many kids on provincial teams that I could say didn't deserve to be there. I'm willing to be proven wrong if someone has a different opinion and can give my some examples from say the last 6-8 years.

3. I would agree that BNB has to do more, and the NBIAA has an obligation to sport as a whole not elite basketball development. BUT: When you espouse fair play and fun for everyone though, and then make the FINAL 12/FInal 8 your showcase event of the year you're really encouraging elite level play too. The rest of the sports in my mind were community or regional sports that came to schools, while basketball has a tradition of being a school sport. I don't think High school Basketball and Elite club basketball on large scale can co-exist in this province.

4. I like the idea of paid coaches travelling and evaluating and improving coaching. How receptive would people be? If people already think it a cash grab how does adding more paid positions help?
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CoachDJR



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PostSubject: Re: Long Term Athlete Development   Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:50 am

For those not familiar with the document in question here is a link:

http://www.basketball.nb.ca/app/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=GJk24%2fB1vk4%3d&tabid=36&mid=985&language=en-US
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Coach to Develop



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PostSubject: Re: Long Term Athlete Development   Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:29 pm

Coach DJR I really like some of the statements you've brought forward. The one that I think really needs some discussion is the question of whether Elite club teams and High School basketball can co-exist. After being involved in NB basketball for 10+ years now, I really question whether they can. When everyone is focused on being a High School champion you end up having coaches that implement systems and refine those instead of developing basketball IQ.

Now a couple of points that I would SERIOUSLY like to talk about are:

Selection of Summer teams are political: I've been part of numerous selection committees and I guarantee you that the focus is on selecting the best team. It makes me laugh when I see some members of this forum talk about players from their respective communities being the best players in the province when they haven't even seen any players outside of their respective league. Then throw a fit when that player doesn't get selected to a summer team. If you don't like it, then get involved in coaching and basketball in the province and ask to be part of the committee. All teams are selected by committee and must have the majority of the committee be in agreement before any selection is made.

The other is that BNB is a cash grab. I can tell you that BNB has very little funding to work with. In fact the majority of their funding comes from provincial tournaments that are held after the High School season. When you consider all of the age classes that BNB supports, that requires money. The province provides very little financial support to BNB, especially when you look at other provinces in the country. Given that the current government is trying to cut spending, I don't see that changing anytime soon. That means that BNB either needs strong corporate parnerships, or players end up covering the costs for their involvement. That is what happened last year for players that played on provincial teams. They essentially had to cover the costs associated with being part of the team. A large financial burden for sure. If anyone knows of corporate partners that would like to help fund BNB's programs, I know they would love to hear from them.


Adding paid coaching positions just is not feasible at this time. BNB simply does not have the funds to support that.

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driver59



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PostSubject: Re: Long Term Athlete Development   Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:27 pm

Its nice to know that im not the only person thinking that something should be done in this province about our Athlete Development with regaurds to our basketball players . first of all ive witnessed many provincal tryouts for summer teams ,and i have seen most of the best players in the province in the last 6 or 7 years, something i have noticed is that the number of players comming out for the tryouts seems to be going down, i have talked to some of these kids and they tell me that they wont waste there time or there money anymore considering they are competing with players that dont even have to show up for tryouts , i have witnessed this myself. also a player needs guidence he or she cant do it all by them selves , coaching in this province has become a big part of the problem (in the southeast anyway) personal agenda should not play a part in the program at all, everyone envolved needs to be there for one reason only ,Athlete Development. i understand that we need our coaches to evolve as well but not at the cost of the players. we have far to many players that never get that chance to train with the really good coaches with and against the better players. it is an accepted belief that you have to play with and against better teams and players to get better yourself, dont just keep telling these kids not to give up and keep trying , give them some options, have some options.
I believe that there are enough players boys and girls , parents, coaches and officals , that if we had some leadership and a good plan we could do much better to getting to where i think we could and should be , we have school gyms that are empty all summer ALL SUMMER who's gyms are they anyway ? the teachers ? the unions? the school boards? no they are our Gyms and they are our kids , we need more parent envolvement , when i go to some highschool basketball games, and ive seen my share around the province, its always the same 5 or 6 faces i see, and when i ask them how is the parent envolvement in your school they laugh and say what envolvement , now im not saying its like that everywhere in the provincesome schools have great particapation from the parents, all im trying to say is its not just anyone thing that needs changed its anumber of things and i greatfull for the chance to tell it how i see it and if you dont agree by all means say so maybe if enough of us say whats on our minds things might start to change. UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL
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student



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PostSubject: Re: Long Term Athlete Development   Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:02 pm

nice post driver. good to see this revived. i guess that when i say hire independant coaches i should give details. lets say we get 2 coaches for the 8 weeks after school season finishes. couple of university coaches that are willing and impartial. when everybody is fresh. players who don't have to come to tryouts. very common i think.
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driver59



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PostSubject: Re: Long Term Athlete Development   Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:10 pm

yes i think that would work , and if we had basketball going on all summer to , i mean real teams going to real games and or turnaments players could be evaluated in a real game situation also a good way to have coaches get to hone there skills as well as the reffs
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driver59



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PostSubject: Re: Long Term Athlete Development   Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:13 pm

it would be nice to have someone from NBIAA and BNB wading in on this aswell , tell us what you think what do you need to see this through ? i know that you watch and read Hooplife Forums , lets hear from you
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Coachmac



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PostSubject: Re: Long Term Athlete Development   Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:16 pm

driver59 wrote:
it would be nice to have someone from NBIAA and BNB wading in on this aswell , tell us what you think what do you need to see this through ? i know that you watch and read Hooplife Forums , lets hear from you

I doubt NBIAA or BNB has any interest in debating with you on a public forum.
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driver59



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PostSubject: Re: Long Term Athlete Development   Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:25 pm

now why would you say something like that? debate helps move things forward and what difference where we debate? im only trying to help
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Coach to Develop



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PostSubject: Re: Long Term Athlete Development   Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:50 pm

Driver I absolutely love your passion, but somethings I don't follow you on. For instance the gyms may be empty most of the summer, but if we want to use them as coaches, then you have to rent them from the District. Again that costs money that BNB does not have. Same goes for refs. Coaches often use the off season to spend time with their family whom they have spent much less time with for the past 5-6 months.

Elite teams that represent the province are selected to attend national tournaments. U 16 and other teams that do not go to national tournaments are meant as a developmental team. BNB also supports a developmental team for U15. There is also the option for coaches to register club teams in the province and that team is able to register to take part in many of the same tournaments that BNB teams go to. So I don't know why you think it isn't possible to get more players playing top levels. Club teams organize their own schedules and can get games wherever and whenever they want.
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Coachmac



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PostSubject: Re: Long Term Athlete Development   Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:06 pm

driver59 wrote:
now why would you say something like that? debate helps move things forward and what difference where we debate? im only trying to help

I have no problem with debates. I just would not want to see one of our governing bodies getting into debates on a forum. It isn't the place for that conversation with them to occur. I do expect they read the site and would hope they take note of the different opinions and suggestions.
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driver59



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PostSubject: Re: Long Term Athlete Development   Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:25 pm

very good points coach to develop and ones that we need to try and get past
but i think its time we took it upon our selves to make the changes that are needed and i think that process can start here , at least we are talking about it , hopefully some concerns and ideas will come of it also i dont think the elite program runs deep enough ,your trying to pick players for a team to compete on the national level from less players than there are at some highschools and some years its been from the same kids
kids arent trying out because they know they wont get picked Moncton high has a few of those players or did have a few years ago
one for sure seemed to always out preform the players that were picked for the elite teams but never got a look when he came to tryout
so he stopped trying out and he is not the only one . i think we need to take a step back and deside first of all do we really want to change our program then if we do change it where do we start , agreed?
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CoachDJR



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PostSubject: Re: Long Term Athlete Development   Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:46 pm

driver59 wrote:
d
kids arent trying out because they know they wont get picked Moncton high has a few of those players or did have a few years ago
one for sure seemed to always out preform the players that were picked for the elite teams but never got a look when he came to tryout
so he stopped trying out and he is not the only one . i think we need to take a step back and deside first of all do we really want to change our program then if we do change it where do we start , agreed?

I would support any change that makes things better and basketball more competitive. That being said the proof needs to be in the pudding. You can't make decisions based on rumours or uninformed opinions. I'm not saying anyone here is uniformed, just that if you are going to convince governmental bodies of anything you need a plan, evidence that supports the viability of the plan and the reasons it will be better then it was before.

I take some umbrage with this notion that somehow certain kids are being cut or overlooked out of hand. I've been at tryouts, id camps and selection tournaments. Every decision is always made in consult with a committee of coaches and for the team itself a selection team laid out by BNB where the coach only gets 1 vote in 5 or 6.

The only kids I know of who do not have to tryout are CP players. They only et to skip the initial ID sessions and progress to final tryouts because they have already gone through a tryout and been identified as the sort of players NB wants in its elite development program. Having them go through the motions when they've already given up 40+ hours to training with BNB already during the year seems pointless to me. They are not given spots on teams, they simply get to skip the identification stages because they've already been identified.

Again I'm all for anything that helps get more kids playing more often at a high level, but nothing is stopping kids from trying out except their own impressions. If it is a money issue, coaching issue, competition issue then I think we need to discuss and address that and I would love to hear suggestions to correct those points. The idea that the selections are some how predetermined or political are just not what I've encountered in my experience. Most complaints seem to be based on the anecdotal experiences of cut players who feel that these teams should be all star teams with 12 kids who can shoot it and will go 1 on anyone rather then building actual teams of kids who can defend, handle, create, screen , rebound and execute concepts as a team at a national level.
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student



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PostSubject: Re: Long Term Athlete Development   Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:30 pm

coachmac i respectfully disagree with you in regard to opening discussion with bnb in an open forum. part of the problem with the transfer of ideas is the fact that decisions are made behind closed doors.
if too many players are getting discouraged and growth is being stunted then maybe we need 'a' and 'b' teams in all the age brackets. or we need rep/club teams from several zones around the prov.
above all bnb, nbiaa, coaches , and parents need to start petitioning their school boards and their mla to end the charging for gyms on any teams that are school age players. what are we, a third world country that does business with bribes. next thing you know they will start charging/limiting elective surgery. oh wait...
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driver59



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PostSubject: Re: Long Term Athlete Development   Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:45 pm

ive been to many of the same events as you have over the past 6 or 7 yearsand anything i have mentioned or will mention is not hear say its fact as i seen it just so we are clear on that point. i seen 5 boys at the then ABU in Moncton hold what would have been considered by some as among the best in the province to 2 baskets in about 4 minutes and score just as many on them and not one of those boys got so much as a good job or great D i know this because i asked each and every one of those boys after the factto sit there and tell me that there isnt a few infulencing the many is very hard for me to swallow ,as far as i am concerned its an old boys club and needs to change so as to allow the people in the system that really want to help our athletes and not just there own egos do just that , help our athletes all of them so our player pool is deeper, and this goes for the house league programs aswell. Kids are starting basketball at a very early age now , when i was in highschool the best players on the team nevered played basketball untill they were in grade 9, very late to todays standards, so i believe we need to look at how our kids are handled at this younger age , i can tell you some horror stories about some coaches in house league. There is a problem andd there always be a problem unless we can come together on the reason for the problem. it only takes a few to ruin it for the many, there are many good people envolved in basketball in this province and i have had the pleasure to meet some of them , they need help
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driver59



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PostSubject: Re: Long Term Athlete Development   Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:49 pm

very good post student very good indeed
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Coachmac



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PostSubject: Re: Long Term Athlete Development   Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:08 pm

student wrote:
coachmac i respectfully disagree with you in regard to opening discussion with bnb in an open forum. part of the problem with the transfer of ideas is the fact that decisions are made behind closed doors.
if too many players are getting discouraged and growth is being stunted then maybe we need 'a' and 'b' teams in all the age brackets. or we need rep/club teams from several zones around the prov.
above all bnb, nbiaa, coaches , and parents need to start petitioning their school boards and their mla to end the charging for gyms on any teams that are school age players. what are we, a third world country that does business with bribes. next thing you know they will start charging/limiting elective surgery. oh wait...

I wasn't saying there shouldn't be open discussion in an open forum. I was saying an Internet forum where people like to be all brave and mouth off because they can hide behind their anonymity isn't the place to have it with the governing bodies. I know of a few people that love to spout off in here but don't say boo in real life. Some of them have several accounts and actually argue with themselves to cover their tracks. I'm sure BNB would welcome any suggestions that might improve our players or teams. they might even use some of them.

(btw, I was in no way referring to you directly in this post, student. Other than this thread, I have no idea what you have said previously)
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student



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PostSubject: Re: Long Term Athlete Development   Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:07 pm

hoping you are involved with bnb coachmac and will let them know that there are some things that could change
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