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 Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!

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PostSubject: I have to chime in on this one!   Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:54 pm

Stripes - I have been coaching for about 35 years, and I have never seen an official deliberately screw up a call - same as I have never seen a kid, coach or score-keeper deliberately screw up. On the other hand, I admit that I have screwed up (but not deliberately) and cost us a game or two. I figure if we were all 100%, we would be in the pros, not here.

All the talk seems to come back to 'developing the skill' or 'winning the game'. This is a part of sport, but I often have the opportunity to talk with kids that played with me ( with, not for) in years gone by, and it is the trips, the friends, etc that they remember. We have a huge responsibility as coaches - and refs --- we are building young men and women.

Enough of the soapbox.

There is no tougher sport to referee than basketball - you have to be watching feet, hands, lines, contact, clock, ball, hoop, floor positioning, etc, and varying rules do not help. I have come across a couple of arrogant refs in my time, but 99.9% of the refs have been more than willing to chat and joke, even during a game. I believe that you get back what you give.

And I cant let this go - I am sure it is a Freudian slip - but in your post you said "The top officials in New Brunswick are as god as any in Canada" -- too funny!!

I find the posts by you and CoachDJR to be among the most contributory to what this site is supposed to be.

Thanks for that
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Stripes



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:59 am

commonsense wrote:
Stripes - I have been coaching for about 35 years, and I have never seen an official deliberately screw up a call - same as I have never seen a kid, coach or score-keeper deliberately screw up. On the other hand, I admit that I have screwed up (but not deliberately) and cost us a game or two. I figure if we were all 100%, we would be in the pros, not here.

All the talk seems to come back to 'developing the skill' or 'winning the game'. This is a part of sport, but I often have the opportunity to talk with kids that played with me ( with, not for) in years gone by, and it is the trips, the friends, etc that they remember. We have a huge responsibility as coaches - and refs --- we are building young men and women.

Enough of the soapbox.

There is no tougher sport to referee than basketball - you have to be watching feet, hands, lines, contact, clock, ball, hoop, floor positioning, etc, and varying rules do not help. I have come across a couple of arrogant refs in my time, but 99.9% of the refs have been more than willing to chat and joke, even during a game. I believe that you get back what you give.

And I cant let this go - I am sure it is a Freudian slip - but in your post you said "The top officials in New Brunswick are as god as any in Canada" -- too funny!!

I find the posts by you and CoachDJR to be among the most contributory to what this site is supposed to be.

Thanks for that

I wish I could say it was deliberate but it was just a typo. Must have been a subconscious thing Very Happy
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student



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:44 pm

which aaa teams have big league games this week? i know there are some good tourney games coming up
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patindubai



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PostSubject: referees and coaches   Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:19 pm

Hello everyone,

I've been reading this forum for about a year as it is nice to hear how things are progressing back home. I refereed in the Fredericton zone for about 20 years and, like anyone, each year I had games where I did a good job, games where I did a great job (once or twice), games where I was not very good, and a few times I really had an off day. On those days when I was not as good as the players or coaches I made it a point to apologize to BOTH teams and their coaches. I have on quite a few occasions refused payment when I felt I did not earn it, and I know lots of referees who did the same. I have made mistakes that probably influenced the outcome of a game, and those still bother me 20 years later. I learned a long time ago that when I made a mistake I would admit it, learn from it, and move on. I know a lot of other officials felt the same way.

I know I never had a "perfect game" or a "perfect half" or a "perfect quarter". I do know I learned a LOT more from the games when I messed up than those I did well. But here's the funny thing - if I had called coaches and players some of the things they called myself and my fellow officials there would have been complaints all around. Very rarely did I ever have a coach come up to me and apologize for the things they said or the things they did. I did have players come up and apologize for the behavior of their coaches, and that always made my day a bit brighter. I do remember games where we referees, before the game, would talk about the things that had been said in previous games and we would always tell each other to make sure we started each game with a fresh slate. We tried to make sure we did not carry any "baggage" into future games. That should be a two-way street. Then we would go out on the floor and get "Not you idiots again!" from a coach. I guess they did carry some baggage.

I started refereeing when I was at University and 18 years of age. I had played the game for many years and THOUGHT I knew the rules. I did not even come close. I started doing Junior High games and started learning. I was impressed by the number of officials who were willing to help a new official. I do wish there had been assessment games and tournaments all year long. I worked my way up to A and AA games and got better each year. After a few years I was given AAA games, College games, and Senior games. At each stage I learned more and I tried to get better. I realized that there were going to be officials who were always going to be better than myself - for reasons of experience, background, mindset, personality, and so on.

I believe the very best training a player and coach can receive is to be given a rule book and then taught the rules. This would eliminate a lot of the complaining. I would love to see players and coaches take the refereeing exam each year but this never seems to happen.

I have seen a lot of great calls, more good calls than one would believe, some bad calls, and more than a few that were quite bizarre. I think most people forget that referees are not professional referees in that they usually have something else that takes up most of their time (school, work, travel, and so on). It saddened me greatly to see a lot of really nice kids, who just wanted to learn about refereeing and to make a few dollars, be verbally abused to the point where they walked away from the game.

I remember one of the best officials in NB telling me "speak to the players, coaches, and minor officials like they were your children - fairly and with respect". We all make mistakes.

Happy New Year everyone. Have a great rest of the season.

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obcnamtaf



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:54 pm

OK boys and girls...need to pick your brains a little bit...
I was watching a high school basketball game today and a Coach went over to the scorers table and asked for a time out . The table told the coach he had no time outs left. And the coach asked , not loudly or angrily but forcefully , if they were sure. The ref seeing the commotion (such as it was) came over to the table and asked if a time out was being requested , the coach said no, never mind and started back to his bench. The opposing coach started arguing that they had to give the coach a "T" for requesting a time out when he had none left. And the official did just that. T'd him up. Is this correct ?
I always thought that the "T"' for calling a time out , was an american rule , cause in their game players can call time outs from the floor without checking with the table. In our rules you can't get time outs unless the table gives you one , so the rule would not be needed. It would be a table error if one was granted , not a coaches , so no T. (unless a coach started arguing or being abusive with the minor officials , then he could get T'd up for that)
Was that a legal call ? ( I didn't say good call cause there is no way you would call that a good call Very Happy

Thoughts anyone !!
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Coachmac



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:06 pm

obcnamtaf wrote:
OK boys and girls...need to pick your brains a little bit...
I was watching a high school basketball game today and a Coach went over to the scorers table and asked for a time out . The table told the coach he had no time outs left. And the coach asked , not loudly or angrily but forcefully , if they were sure. The ref seeing the commotion (such as it was) came over to the table and asked if a time out was being requested , the coach said no, never mind and started back to his bench. The opposing coach started arguing that they had to give the coach a "T" for requesting a time out when he had none left. And the official did just that. T'd him up. Is this correct ?
I always thought that the "T"' for calling a time out , was an american rule , cause in their game players can call time outs from the floor without checking with the table. In our rules you can't get time outs unless the table gives you one , so the rule would not be needed. It would be a table error if one was granted , not a coaches , so no T. (unless a coach started arguing or being abusive with the minor officials , then he could get T'd up for that)
Was that a legal call ? ( I didn't say good call cause there is no way you would call that a good call Very Happy

Thoughts anyone !!

I believe you can withdraw the request before the officials are notified, but I was under the impression it would be a T if they were notified and you had none remaining. I always ask the table if I have one in case I missed one in the heat of the game.
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Stripes



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:29 pm

obcnamtaf wrote:
OK boys and girls...need to pick your brains a little bit...
I was watching a high school basketball game today and a Coach went over to the scorers table and asked for a time out . The table told the coach he had no time outs left. And the coach asked , not loudly or angrily but forcefully , if they were sure. The ref seeing the commotion (such as it was) came over to the table and asked if a time out was being requested , the coach said no, never mind and started back to his bench. The opposing coach started arguing that they had to give the coach a "T" for requesting a time out when he had none left. And the official did just that. T'd him up. Is this correct ?
I always thought that the "T"' for calling a time out , was an american rule , cause in their game players can call time outs from the floor without checking with the table. In our rules you can't get time outs unless the table gives you one , so the rule would not be needed. It would be a table error if one was granted , not a coaches , so no T. (unless a coach started arguing or being abusive with the minor officials , then he could get T'd up for that)
Was that a legal call ? ( I didn't say good call cause there is no way you would call that a good call Very Happy

Thoughts anyone !!

Bravo to you for knowing the FIBA rule. Before I criticize the official, are you 100% sure the T was not for something else?

You are right, in FIBA the onus is on the table officials to only sound the horn if a team has a timeout left. The coach can ask.

In what gym did this game take place if I may ask?
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Stripes



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:31 pm

Coachmac wrote:
obcnamtaf wrote:
OK boys and girls...need to pick your brains a little bit...
I was watching a high school basketball game today and a Coach went over to the scorers table and asked for a time out . The table told the coach he had no time outs left. And the coach asked , not loudly or angrily but forcefully , if they were sure. The ref seeing the commotion (such as it was) came over to the table and asked if a time out was being requested , the coach said no, never mind and started back to his bench. The opposing coach started arguing that they had to give the coach a "T" for requesting a time out when he had none left. And the official did just that. T'd him up. Is this correct ?
I always thought that the "T"' for calling a time out , was an american rule , cause in their game players can call time outs from the floor without checking with the table. In our rules you can't get time outs unless the table gives you one , so the rule would not be needed. It would be a table error if one was granted , not a coaches , so no T. (unless a coach started arguing or being abusive with the minor officials , then he could get T'd up for that)
Was that a legal call ? ( I didn't say good call cause there is no way you would call that a good call Very Happy

Thoughts anyone !!

I believe you can withdraw the request before the officials are notified, but I was under the impression it would be a T if they were notified and you had none remaining. I always ask the table if I have one in case I missed one in the heat of the game.

You can never receive a T for asking for a timeout unless you ask in an unsportsmanlike manner. But that's a different subject altogether.
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Coachmac



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:01 pm

Stripes wrote:
Coachmac wrote:
obcnamtaf wrote:
OK boys and girls...need to pick your brains a little bit...
I was watching a high school basketball game today and a Coach went over to the scorers table and asked for a time out . The table told the coach he had no time outs left. And the coach asked , not loudly or angrily but forcefully , if they were sure. The ref seeing the commotion (such as it was) came over to the table and asked if a time out was being requested , the coach said no, never mind and started back to his bench. The opposing coach started arguing that they had to give the coach a "T" for requesting a time out when he had none left. And the official did just that. T'd him up. Is this correct ?
I always thought that the "T"' for calling a time out , was an american rule , cause in their game players can call time outs from the floor without checking with the table. In our rules you can't get time outs unless the table gives you one , so the rule would not be needed. It would be a table error if one was granted , not a coaches , so no T. (unless a coach started arguing or being abusive with the minor officials , then he could get T'd up for that)
Was that a legal call ? ( I didn't say good call cause there is no way you would call that a good call Very Happy

Thoughts anyone !!

I believe you can withdraw the request before the officials are notified, but I was under the impression it would be a T if they were notified and you had none remaining. I always ask the table if I have one in case I missed one in the heat of the game.

You can never receive a T for asking for a timeout unless you ask in an unsportsmanlike manner. But that's a different subject altogether.

What if you asked the ref instead of the table and he stopped play?......which I would assume he technically(no pun intended) shouldn't do.
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thehump



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:21 pm

Coachmac wrote:
Stripes wrote:
Coachmac wrote:
obcnamtaf wrote:
OK boys and girls...need to pick your brains a little bit...
I was watching a high school basketball game today and a Coach went over to the scorers table and asked for a time out . The table told the coach he had no time outs left. And the coach asked , not loudly or angrily but forcefully , if they were sure. The ref seeing the commotion (such as it was) came over to the table and asked if a time out was being requested , the coach said no, never mind and started back to his bench. The opposing coach started arguing that they had to give the coach a "T" for requesting a time out when he had none left. And the official did just that. T'd him up. Is this correct ?
I always thought that the "T"' for calling a time out , was an american rule , cause in their game players can call time outs from the floor without checking with the table. In our rules you can't get time outs unless the table gives you one , so the rule would not be needed. It would be a table error if one was granted , not a coaches , so no T. (unless a coach started arguing or being abusive with the minor officials , then he could get T'd up for that)
Was that a legal call ? ( I didn't say good call cause there is no way you would call that a good call Very Happy

Thoughts anyone !!

I believe you can withdraw the request before the officials are notified, but I was under the impression it would be a T if they were notified and you had none remaining. I always ask the table if I have one in case I missed one in the heat of the game.

You can never receive a T for asking for a timeout unless you ask in an unsportsmanlike manner. But that's a different subject altogether.

What if you asked the ref instead of the table and he stopped play?......which I would assume he technically(no pun intended) shouldn't do.

If you ask an on-court official for a timeout, they should direct you to place the request with the scorer's table. Only if the scorer's table "accepts" the request and buzzes it in should the timeout request be granted. If the oncourt official directly grants the timeout when the team has none remaining, it still would not be a technical foul -- this would be the official's mistake. The stoppage (ie "timeout") should be terminated immediately since no timeout should have taken place, and play resume right away.
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obcnamtaf



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:24 pm

Thanks guys , that's what I thought....I would like to say the call did not impact the outcome but you never know. At the time the lead was 20+ pts, 3rd quarter...ended up an 8 pt game (though 8 was a close as it got all 4th quarter). The team missed both foulshots and turned it over on the possession , so no pts scored because of it....the coach didn't argue the call....in short , nobody there knew the rule...refs were both certified , registered but not "A' officials.. both new to the officiating game....I talked to them after and told them what I thought ( as stated in my post , and they agreed and understood.....so ooooops! on their part :-)
Just wanted to check to make sure....
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Coachmac



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:30 pm

thehump wrote:
Coachmac wrote:
Stripes wrote:
Coachmac wrote:
obcnamtaf wrote:
OK boys and girls...need to pick your brains a little bit...
I was watching a high school basketball game today and a Coach went over to the scorers table and asked for a time out . The table told the coach he had no time outs left. And the coach asked , not loudly or angrily but forcefully , if they were sure. The ref seeing the commotion (such as it was) came over to the table and asked if a time out was being requested , the coach said no, never mind and started back to his bench. The opposing coach started arguing that they had to give the coach a "T" for requesting a time out when he had none left. And the official did just that. T'd him up. Is this correct ?
I always thought that the "T"' for calling a time out , was an american rule , cause in their game players can call time outs from the floor without checking with the table. In our rules you can't get time outs unless the table gives you one , so the rule would not be needed. It would be a table error if one was granted , not a coaches , so no T. (unless a coach started arguing or being abusive with the minor officials , then he could get T'd up for that)
Was that a legal call ? ( I didn't say good call cause there is no way you would call that a good call Very Happy

Thoughts anyone !!

I believe you can withdraw the request before the officials are notified, but I was under the impression it would be a T if they were notified and you had none remaining. I always ask the table if I have one in case I missed one in the heat of the game.

You can never receive a T for asking for a timeout unless you ask in an unsportsmanlike manner. But that's a different subject altogether.

What if you asked the ref instead of the table and he stopped play?......which I would assume he technically(no pun intended) shouldn't do.

If you ask an on-court official for a timeout, they should direct you to place the request with the scorer's table. Only if the scorer's table "accepts" the request and buzzes it in should the timeout request be granted. If the oncourt official directly grants the timeout when the team has none remaining, it still would not be a technical foul -- this would be the official's mistake. The stoppage (ie "timeout") should be terminated immediately since no timeout should have taken place, and play resume right away.

I always tell the table, but I signal the ref. Too many times over the years I have only asked the table and they have forgotten and the play has continued on. I don't risk it anymore.
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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Today at 3:26 pm

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