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 Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!

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CoachDJR



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:54 pm

student wrote:
nice post djr. like to hear about trends. what do you hear about flagrants or sporstmanship fouls this yr? are those numbers up? or technicals? we had a couple last week

Well I haven't actually seen any technicals this year, though I know they must be happening. I have seen more unsportsmanlikes, but all have been by the book calls or what officials deemed to be excessive contact. I have been watching more basketball at more levels (jv and varsity) most of the unsportsmalike fouls I see happen at a JV level ironicially enough. Generally the happen at two times: a) when a kid makes what would be (IMO) a tough basketball play, but because of a lack of balance or skill on the part of the player being hit it turns into a train wreck. It ends up an unsportsmanlike. I'll then see officials call the result of the contact. b) When you've got unskilled players who are taking up positions on a team to have bodies, in a game vs. high caliber players on the opposition. These are kids that don't have the skill sets to do anything positive except be a body and get frustrated then don't have the knowledge and/temperment to handle their frustrations.

Let me give you an example of situation A. I've seen 4 of this exact play called as unsportsmanlikes this year: the offensive ball handler is being directed up the sideline by the defender. The offense and defense are running shoulder to shoulder/hip to hip. The defense in attempt to step in front while the offense is trying to get an angle back in to force a foul or make the defense let them by. D then gets tangled up/trips or bumps the offensive player. (In a varsity game the ballhanlder would probably have the strength or wherewithall to not get in that position or when it happens to absorb the bump or keep balance when they go out of bounds. The defender would have enough body control to know when they could get that position and when to give it up.) In JV game it becomes a train wreck with both players and or just the ballhandler going down hard or landing in the front row. I've seen this called an unsportsmanlike a number of times this year, not incorrectly mind you just an unfortunate play.

Overall I think the refs, players and fans I've seen this year (95%) have done a great job of playing tough games and being intense without being over the top. My hats off to officials who have the hardest job in the game and to fans who are trying to balance their investment (team/kids/etc) with trying to maintain a positive atmosphere for everyone.
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straightshooter



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Sun Jan 02, 2011 5:10 pm

most officials are ok but there are some that are seriously seriously bad and in league games they do determine outcomes and it shouldn't be that way, it should be the teams. For some reason nothing gets said or done with these refs and they continue to be brutal with no consequence because the area might not have many. Its not one area either it's all over the province. you might run into a few good ones then you get hit with terrible ones and i guess you remember the terrible ones more lol.
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Boas 98-02



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:07 pm

I was a ref for a couple years, it's not easy! It's stressful and you constantly have people in your face. I have a tonne of respect for every official in the league whether they are good at their job or not. It's a part of the game, always has been and always will be. I admit I have blamed offcials in the past for losing games but in the end it's the team that loses the game.
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coach12



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:34 pm

[quote="straightshooter"]most officials are ok but there are some that are seriously seriously bad and in league games they do determine outcomes quote]

In all honesty, I've never seen an official determine the "outcome" of a game. I've seen bad calls at inopportune times and everything under the sun, but to say an official determined the outome of an entire game is a lack of responsibility.

The best teams in high school basketball shoot around 40%...could you imagine if an official had that success rate? If an official runs at about 85% they have people going crazy.

I would say...if you have a bad call that doesn't go your way at the end of the game, check your foul shooting percentage...how many turnovers did you have...but to put it on an official, is crazy!!
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straightshooter



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:56 am

Your probably right but i once saw a ref call a three in the key when a team stole the ball and a player was at half court ready to pass to his team mate at the other end of the court by the basket. Once this player at half was going through the motion to pass he called the three in the key on the player at the other end waiting for the pass lololol. I once seen a ref call a foul on a kid then stare at him to see if he would react so he could call a technicall i could go on and on about the craziness i have seen. At the end of the game when the teams are close in score and the ref makes a couple of bad really bad calls makes it about him not the teams to determine the outcome of a game. yeah the players could have done things a bit better but when its a close game and you make this outrageous call that you haven't made all game and you decided to make this call at the end of the game it's kinda madning, puts the ref before the players but yeah a couple of less turnovers or foul shots made might be the difference.
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straightshooter



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:05 am

it is tough being a ref but for some reason its not as tough for the good refs I wonder why that is!! just sayin!!! Calls get made at one end of the province that don't at the other good or bad all refs should be on the same page there shouldn't be that much of a diffence!! if you allow this in one area then it should be the same in the other area but it's not. refs at the southern part of the province call a lot of touch fouls and little bumps and not so much in the northern region. Another one I noticed is an over the back call on rebounds is different in different areas there is lots of inconsistency around the province, then refs don't understand why coaches get upset that is where you have your battles and problems. all areas are called differently for better or worse. PS you can't tell me when a player takes a charge is called the same around the province if you do you lying lolol
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Coachmac



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:19 am

straightshooter wrote:
it is tough being a ref but for some reason its not as tough for the good refs I wonder why that is!! just sayin!!! Calls get made at one end of the province that don't at the other good or bad all refs should be on the same page there shouldn't be that much of a diffence!! if you allow this in one area then it should be the same in the other area but it's not. refs at the southern part of the province call a lot of touch fouls and little bumps and not so much in the northern region. Another one I noticed is an over the back call on rebounds is different in different areas there is lots of inconsistency around the province, then refs don't understand why coaches get upset that is where you have your battles and problems. all areas are called differently for better or worse. PS you can't tell me when a player takes a charge is called the same around the province if you do you lying lolol

I got T'd up this year. But, now that I have started using my fingers to count to 5, I should always have the proper number of players on.
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student



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:49 am

nice post coachmac. sraitshooter, i think there are huge inconsistancies. no question how tough refs job is. and it takes time to get experience. coaches are probably the biggest issue for refs. i see
1. coaches arguing calls-not a bad thing when a mistake is truly made
2. coaches working the refs to get favorable calls-not good for the state of the game
3. refs holding grudges or getting even with coaches and players
the most consistant refs are the best. ncaa is where i see the best ones
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celts4



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:11 pm

student wrote:
nice post coachmac. sraitshooter, i think there are huge inconsistancies. no question how tough refs job is. and it takes time to get experience. coaches are probably the biggest issue for refs. i see
1. coaches arguing calls-not a bad thing when a mistake is truly made
2. coaches working the refs to get favorable calls-not good for the state of the game
3. refs holding grudges or getting even with coaches and players
the most consistant refs are the best. ncaa is where i see the best ones

i've had a ref hold a grudge against me (or at least felt like he did) and it doesnt change the outcome of the game entirely but it changes the outlook of the game. when i felt he was holding a grudge against me, i held a grudge against him as well. i acted like a smartass and i made it my focus to prove him that he was a terrible ref. i played sloppy and it was just disgusting. the point is, when a kid notices these things and feels like he is being watched more closely than the others, it changes how that kid will play and it doesnt show the true potential of basketball in this province. it completely takes them away from the type of basketball they are capable of playing. but i guess we cant always choose our refs tho, can we?
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straightshooter



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:42 pm

Also bad refs can take momentums out of the games and as a player after a couple of bad calls against you it takes the wind out of your sails so whoever thinks refs don't have an affect of the outcome of a game probably have not played very much. Tough to overcome two or three bad calls when there is like 2 minutes left in a game and the score is tied or your down or up by 2 or three.
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CoachDJR



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:56 pm

PLayers and coaches jobs are to take care of the things they can control and to focus on their execution and development. Nothing positive can come from allowing players to focus on things they can't control, or encouraging view points that allow players to blame poor results or performance anything except their choices, actions and preparation.


Refs do not win or lose games. A tough call or disagreement does not control how player chooses to respond to it.

This entire conversation has taken a negative tone, many of peers/colleagues and friends are officials. I can vouch that they are doing the best job they know how and are consummate professionals. I have yet to meet an official who has won or lost a game for a team.

Now I do see players/teams and coaches who lose games. Generally its because they do not score more then the other team. Make more free throws, turn the ball over less, get more rebounds, be stronger, groom more depth, play with more composure/poise . . . these are the things that cost teams games.
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straightshooter



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:42 pm

that is all fine and dandy but your saying there is no accountability for refs and good or bad its ok because it's never there fault. Kinda weird the ref having the power to have the do whatever i want and get away with it badge and it being ok.
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straightshooter



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:57 pm

I got another story for you coach i once coached in a game where the refs came to me and asked me if i knew such in such, myself and the other coach with me said yes all they went on to say is how much they disliked this person and the whole game they reffed a different game and one call stands out for an example is that we were on defense and the person was guarding someone at the foul line and the offensive player was pivoting the ref called a foul on the defense and it was a weird call i asked the ref to come over to explain to me why the defensive player got called for a foul and the ref said that the defense didn't give the offense enough room to come down and that is the best i can explain the call coach. At that point I thought this ref was on crack because all the offensive players was doing was pivoting and did not jump in the air and come back down at all that would be a travel right lololololol anyway i could go on about refs and how bad they can be there are a hand full of good ones but a truck load of bad and inconsistent ones i know you mean well and yes the teams need to play better but there is got to be some accountability for these superheroes lolololololololool
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Coachmac



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:13 pm

straightshooter wrote:
I got another story for you coach i once coached in a game where the refs came to me and asked me if i knew such in such, myself and the other coach with me said yes all they went on to say is how much they disliked this person and the whole game they reffed a different game and one call stands out for an example is that we were on defense and the person was guarding someone at the foul line and the offensive player was pivoting the ref called a foul on the defense and it was a weird call i asked the ref to come over to explain to me why the defensive player got called for a foul and the ref said that the defense didn't give the offense enough room to come down and that is the best i can explain the call coach. At that point I thought this ref was on crack because all the offensive players was doing was pivoting and did not jump in the air and come back down at all that would be a travel right lololololol anyway i could go on about refs and how bad they can be there are a hand full of good ones but a truck load of bad and inconsistent ones i know you mean well and yes the teams need to play better but there is got to be some accountability for these superheroes lolololololololool

I've coached a lot of games, but I can't ever recall feeling a ref had it in for my team. You will rarely if ever see me comment on a call. I tend to figure it all evens out in the end. If I have one complaint, it would be the occasional ref that won't clarify a call when I ask them about it. With all the noise in a gym, sometimes you just don't know what they called.
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Maripac30



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:37 pm

I really only have 2 problems with the refs:

1. The ones with the "God" complex. You can't speak to them, ask a question, get a clarification. They want to be the show and the lowly coaches and players are beneath them

2. No accountability. There is little incentive for them to improve. They get evaluated once or twice when they first start and thats it. No matter how good or bad a job they do, they know they will called for another game.
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straightshooter



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:42 pm

the people who don't have problems with some refs must play a lot of home games where the refs like there team or they play a lot of games in one area and don't have to travel or choose not to travel much then they would see how bad some of the superheroes are ahhahaha
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celts4



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:08 pm

haha you know its bad when a player on the opposing team is asking you why the ref is staring you down lollllll
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Coachmac



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:00 am

straightshooter wrote:
the people who don't have problems with some refs must play a lot of home games where the refs like there team or they play a lot of games in one area and don't have to travel or choose not to travel much then they would see how bad some of the superheroes are ahhahaha

I can't speak for the other coaches, but we play the majority of our games on the road. So far this year, I think we have played 14 games and 2 have been home games.
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highlightreel



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:17 am

Wow you guys must not like playing in your own gym lol
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highlightreel



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:39 am

Is there Any big games coming up for AAA boys this week kinda curious?
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Stripes



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:04 pm

It's always interesting to read what anynomous poster have to say about officials. Referees like any other group are made up of good ones and bad ones. Keep in mind that when you're playing or watching "your" team, you are not objective about the officiating. Some people can be reasonable and level headed when it comes to dealing with the officiating (Coach Mac is one these people as I have reffed his games) unfortunately I alot of folks base the level of officiating on how many calls go their way. I've been to games to evaluate officials where the officiating has been solid but if I asked the fans; their opinion would be quite different.

The top officials in New Brunswick are as god as any in Canada, unfortunately the bad ones are as bad as any in Canada as well. We as group try to develop officials as best we can by encouraging young guys and girls to join our association and developping the ones that are already there. Many who join don't last, it's tough when you're expected to be perfect when you start out (based on the comments of coaches, parents etc....) We also try to increase the level of our present officials but unless they "really" want it, there isn't much that can be done. Some officials will go to clinics and camps, they will review game tapes, they will be mentored etc...., but not every official is that serious about officiating the same that not every high school player is serious about playing. I have apassion for officiating, I understand that not everyone is the same. Even though if I have a passion and I spend countless hours working on my game, I also understand that is does not guarantee success. The best official in the world is going to get some calls wrong so I'm going to get more wrong than him.

Coaches who communicate well with officials usually find that the officials communicate well with them. It's a two-way street. This fall, I was refereeing a high school game when a player started complaining to me about calls. I told his coach that I didn't want to hear any more from his player. Most coaches appreciate the heads up and they talk to their player. This coach said "Why are you telling me this?" I said "No problem". Later in the game, I'm walkiing in front of the coach when he wants to talk about a call. I ignored him. I'm not sure if he got it. If the coach tells me that he doesn't want me to talk to him, then I'm not going to listen to him. The way many of you feel about refs is how I feel about coaches. There are many classy coaches and players, then there are the others.



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Coachmac



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:05 pm

Stripes wrote:
It's always interesting to read what anynomous poster have to say about officials. Referees like any other group are made up of good ones and bad ones. Keep in mind that when you're playing or watching "your" team, you are not objective about the officiating. Some people can be reasonable and level headed when it comes to dealing with the officiating (Coach Mac is one these people as I have reffed his games) unfortunately I alot of folks base the level of officiating on how many calls go their way. I've been to games to evaluate officials where the officiating has been solid but if I asked the fans; their opinion would be quite different.

The top officials in New Brunswick are as god as any in Canada, unfortunately the bad ones are as bad as any in Canada as well. We as group try to develop officials as best we can by encouraging young guys and girls to join our association and developping the ones that are already there. Many who join don't last, it's tough when you're expected to be perfect when you start out (based on the comments of coaches, parents etc....) We also try to increase the level of our present officials but unless they "really" want it, there isn't much that can be done. Some officials will go to clinics and camps, they will review game tapes, they will be mentored etc...., but not every official is that serious about officiating the same that not every high school player is serious about playing. I have apassion for officiating, I understand that not everyone is the same. Even though if I have a passion and I spend countless hours working on my game, I also understand that is does not guarantee success. The best official in the world is going to get some calls wrong so I'm going to get more wrong than him.

Coaches who communicate well with officials usually find that the officials communicate well with them. It's a two-way street. This fall, I was refereeing a high school game when a player started complaining to me about calls. I told his coach that I didn't want to hear any more from his player. Most coaches appreciate the heads up and they talk to their player. This coach said "Why are you telling me this?" I said "No problem". Later in the game, I'm walkiing in front of the coach when he wants to talk about a call. I ignored him. I'm not sure if he got it. If the coach tells me that he doesn't want me to talk to him, then I'm not going to listen to him. The way many of you feel about refs is how I feel about coaches. There are many classy coaches and players, then there are the others.




I tried being a ref, but I sucked at it. Of course, that doesn't seem to stop me from coaching...lol.

As for anonymous posters. Don't get me started. I consider them cowards if they are taking shots at people. We have lots of them here. (Btw, before any anonymous posters jump on me, I am ONLY referring to the ones that take shots at people). I have no problems with anonymous posters who are offering constructive criticism or just disagreeing with me. Boas takes plenty of heat here(and I don't even slightly agree with him regarding how good his team is....lol), but at least he is willing to state who he is.
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Boas 98-02



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:15 pm

Coachmac wrote:
Stripes wrote:
It's always interesting to read what anynomous poster have to say about officials. Referees like any other group are made up of good ones and bad ones. Keep in mind that when you're playing or watching "your" team, you are not objective about the officiating. Some people can be reasonable and level headed when it comes to dealing with the officiating (Coach Mac is one these people as I have reffed his games) unfortunately I alot of folks base the level of officiating on how many calls go their way. I've been to games to evaluate officials where the officiating has been solid but if I asked the fans; their opinion would be quite different.

The top officials in New Brunswick are as god as any in Canada, unfortunately the bad ones are as bad as any in Canada as well. We as group try to develop officials as best we can by encouraging young guys and girls to join our association and developping the ones that are already there. Many who join don't last, it's tough when you're expected to be perfect when you start out (based on the comments of coaches, parents etc....) We also try to increase the level of our present officials but unless they "really" want it, there isn't much that can be done. Some officials will go to clinics and camps, they will review game tapes, they will be mentored etc...., but not every official is that serious about officiating the same that not every high school player is serious about playing. I have apassion for officiating, I understand that not everyone is the same. Even though if I have a passion and I spend countless hours working on my game, I also understand that is does not guarantee success. The best official in the world is going to get some calls wrong so I'm going to get more wrong than him.

Coaches who communicate well with officials usually find that the officials communicate well with them. It's a two-way street. This fall, I was refereeing a high school game when a player started complaining to me about calls. I told his coach that I didn't want to hear any more from his player. Most coaches appreciate the heads up and they talk to their player. This coach said "Why are you telling me this?" I said "No problem". Later in the game, I'm walkiing in front of the coach when he wants to talk about a call. I ignored him. I'm not sure if he got it. If the coach tells me that he doesn't want me to talk to him, then I'm not going to listen to him. The way many of you feel about refs is how I feel about coaches. There are many classy coaches and players, then there are the others.




I tried being a ref, but I sucked at it. Of course, that doesn't seem to stop me from coaching...lol.

As for anonymous posters. Don't get me started. I consider them cowards if they are taking shots at people. We have lots of them here. (Btw, before any anonymous posters jump on me, I am ONLY referring to the ones that take shots at people). I have no problems with anonymous posters who are offering constructive criticism or just disagreeing with me. Boas takes plenty of heat here(and I don't even slightly agree with him regarding how good his team is....lol), but at least he is willing to state who he is.


Thanks Coachmac..we r that good lol...i m willing to bet ur former team will give us a run this weekend though lol
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Boas 98-02



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:42 pm

I have also seen Coachmac in action, we could all take lessons from this guy!
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student



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PostSubject: Re: Only serious AA and AAA players and team talk allowed!!!   Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:35 pm

there you go stripes, with your arbitrary punitive actions toward a coach. as good as you are as a ref, did you ever stop to think that the coach may have been under pressure to make a decision at the time and was not able to give you the attention you needed at the time. but you had the authority right? anynomous poster for a reason - i truly am nobody. mostly i do think refs are doing a nice job but everybody can improve. without feedback it's tough though
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