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 Play hard or don't play

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PostSubject: Play hard or don't play   Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:17 pm

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Last edited by deadhorse on Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:55 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Maripac30



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PostSubject: Re: Play hard or don't play   Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:38 pm

Can't agree with you.
If you are up on a team 40+, IMHO you should do 2 things. 1 Sit the starters and play the bench (they probably need the floor time anyway) and 2. take off the press. I would never tell a kid to stop playing hard or stop scoring but I don't think there is any need for a press or having your starters "pad their stats" when you are up that much.
You may call it being a baby (insulting people seems what you do best on here anyway), but me, I call it CLASS.

It is nice to see you actually post something where you didn't take a cheap shot at CNBA though. I wasn't sure if you could.
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PostSubject: Re: Play hard or don't play   Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:49 pm

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Last edited by scorekeep on Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:02 pm; edited 2 times in total
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obcnamtaf



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PostSubject: Re: Play hard or don't play   Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:49 pm

HAHAHAHAHA!..."this aint bantam , this aint Y ball , this is High School " Well High School players are still kids too and our coaches have responsibilities to teach us about b-ball and life. I tend to agree with Maripac on this one....kids can still still play hard and use their skills , without rubbing their opponents noses in it..... "don't blow out someones elses candle just to make yours shine brighter "
if that makes me a baby so be it.....better than being an arrogant bully !....

ironically though , where most of this 'running up the score , stuff occurs is at the bantam , middle school and mini levels ....
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bballnb



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PostSubject: Re: Play hard or don't play   Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:58 pm

Scorekeep why do you continuously insult that school? CNBA by typing the name the way you do? Are you in Grade 9 somewhere?
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PostSubject: Re: Play hard or don't play   Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:01 pm

Just for clarification I never insulted CNBA, the NBA part just looks cool to me.


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Coachmac



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PostSubject: Re: Play hard or don't play   Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:24 pm

Maripac30 wrote:
Can't agree with you.
If you are up on a team 40+, IMHO you should do 2 things. 1 Sit the starters and play the bench (they probably need the floor time anyway) and 2. take off the press. I would never tell a kid to stop playing hard or stop scoring but I don't think there is any need for a press or having your starters "pad their stats" when you are up that much.
You may call it being a baby (insulting people seems what you do best on here anyway), but me, I call it CLASS.

It is nice to see you actually post something where you didn't take a cheap shot at CNBA though. I wasn't sure if you could.

If you are up forty and still pressing us, it better not be with your starters. If it's your bench and they need to learn the press, I am fine with that. Will do my bench good to have to figure it out, also(but against players closer to them in skill).
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bballnb



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PostSubject: Re: Play hard or don't play   Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:47 pm

Coachmac wrote:
Maripac30 wrote:
Can't agree with you.
If you are up on a team 40+, IMHO you should do 2 things. 1 Sit the starters and play the bench (they probably need the floor time anyway) and 2. take off the press. I would never tell a kid to stop playing hard or stop scoring but I don't think there is any need for a press or having your starters "pad their stats" when you are up that much.
You may call it being a baby (insulting people seems what you do best on here anyway), but me, I call it CLASS.

It is nice to see you actually post something where you didn't take a cheap shot at CNBA though. I wasn't sure if you could.

If you are up forty and still pressing us, it better not be with your starters. If it's your bench and they need to learn the press, I am fine with that. Will do my bench good to have to figure it out, also(but against players closer to them in skill).

Perfectly said!
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driver59



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PostSubject: Re: Play hard or don't play   Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:29 pm

yes i agree however some tournaments are set up where your forced to run the score up to deside a tie, i would rather see another game played to deside a tie .
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CoachDJR



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PostSubject: Re: Play hard or don't play   Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:46 pm

Maripac30 wrote:
Can't agree with you.
If you are up on a team 40+, IMHO you should do 2 things. 1 Sit the starters and play the bench (they probably need the floor time anyway) and 2. take off the press. I would never tell a kid to stop playing hard or stop scoring but I don't think there is any need for a press or having your starters "pad their stats" when you are up that much.

This is a loaded issue. I can see both sides of this and have been on both sides.

Just some things to think about in terms of this conversation:

- In most of these games, the best chance the weaker team has to score is to be playing an up and down game where their best athlete can make athletic plays, if the team being outclassed has to beat a superior team with their 1-2 best players in the half court vs. great defense they are less likely to score. This make keep the score down but would the losing team here rather score 20-30 points and lose by 70 or lose by 45-50 and only score 15.

- Is there a difference if the teams have ask to be at a tournament with these teams vs. having to play them in league?

- While I agree with the sentiment of playing the bench kids, only if the blowout is a rare thing. Can you imagine working your tail off to be a starter and one of the best athletes in the province and then because your league is so weak you can only play 10-15 minutes a game 10-12-18?? times a year? When I think about Fredericton's JV team a couple years ago, in old AAA when FHS used to thump Saint John Schools, DP in the western conference now. They aren't 40 points better a couple of games a year. In every league game they have to play, the starters have to sit and can't play the way you want. At some point if you are training kids to do something the kids who do it the best have to be allowed to do their thing.

- This may be a product of a sport culture in our province that is regionalized and compartmentalised. It is more important that my kids, my town, etc do well then pormoting and improving the sport on a whole. There is a pervasive attitude in this province that it is not one program's responsibilty to look out for someone elses.

- There is also a huge disparity in what teams/coaches view as playing hard. There is a dramatic difference between pressing/trapping full court and token full court m2m defense, but people don't see that. You've got teams who can win a JV game by 100 and the feeling involved is they've just got to know whats coming. You've got other games at the same level where people are offended if people have starters in or are shooting 3's once their up 20 -30. Again you will even have officials who ask coaches to back off to half court once teams are up by a large enough score. This whole topic starts because you can't get a small group of people to agree on what is appropriate in this situation, let alone a whole province.

- Could you make a rule to fix some of this? IE. Point differential can never count as more than a +25 or +30 in terms of +/- in league play? If a school loses a first of two league games by a certain amount to an opponent they have the option of having the game count for both at the discretion of the loser?

- Leagues can set up schedules however they want so long as AD's agree. There is no mandatory home and home that is just how leagues choose to play it. They could play each other 3 times, 4 times, once whatever they could agree on. They could have a couple of tournaments or jamborees a year to decide their rankings if they want. The NBIAA just needs to know based on their conference's format who finishes 1,2,3,4.

- You hate to think about kids in terms of which is more important because they are all important and valuable. That being said you've got teams that are so weak, that the best kids on other teams are punished not only by having to have the game, but needing to sit on the bench and watch kids they've worked hard to earn more then playing. ONce or twice a year you can argue they should support their teammates and cheer from the bench. When they have a max number of games they can play, how many times should they be asked or required to do this? IF it is too often there is no reward for their hard work in off season.
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Coachmac



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PostSubject: Re: Play hard or don't play   Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:50 pm

CoachDJR wrote:
Maripac30 wrote:
Can't agree with you.
If you are up on a team 40+, IMHO you should do 2 things. 1 Sit the starters and play the bench (they probably need the floor time anyway) and 2. take off the press. I would never tell a kid to stop playing hard or stop scoring but I don't think there is any need for a press or having your starters "pad their stats" when you are up that much.

This is a loaded issue. I can see both sides of this and have been on both sides.

Just some things to think about in terms of this conversation:

- In most of these games, the best chance the weaker team has to score is to be playing an up and down game where their best athlete can make athletic plays, if the team being outclassed has to beat a superior team with their 1-2 best players in the half court vs. great defense they are less likely to score. This make keep the score down but would the losing team here rather score 20-30 points and lose by 70 or lose by 45-50 and only score 15.

- Is there a difference if the teams have ask to be at a tournament with these teams vs. having to play them in league?

- While I agree with the sentiment of playing the bench kids, only if the blowout is a rare thing. Can you imagine working your tail off to be a starter and one of the best athletes in the province and then because your league is so weak you can only play 10-15 minutes a game 10-12-18?? times a year? When I think about Fredericton's JV team a couple years ago, in old AAA when FHS used to thump Saint John Schools, DP in the western conference now. They aren't 40 points better a couple of games a year. In every league game they have to play, the starters have to sit and can't play the way you want. At some point if you are training kids to do something the kids who do it the best have to be allowed to do their thing.

- This may be a product of a sport culture in our province that is regionalized and compartmentalised. It is more important that my kids, my town, etc do well then pormoting and improving the sport on a whole. There is a pervasive attitude in this province that it is not one program's responsibilty to look out for someone elses.

- There is also a huge disparity in what teams/coaches view as playing hard. There is a dramatic difference between pressing/trapping full court and token full court m2m defense, but people don't see that. You've got teams who can win a JV game by 100 and the feeling involved is they've just got to know whats coming. You've got other games at the same level where people are offended if people have starters in or are shooting 3's once their up 20 -30. Again you will even have officials who ask coaches to back off to half court once teams are up by a large enough score. This whole topic starts because you can't get a small group of people to agree on what is appropriate in this situation, let alone a whole province.

- Could you make a rule to fix some of this? IE. Point differential can never count as more than a +25 or +30 in terms of +/- in league play? If a school loses a first of two league games by a certain amount to an opponent they have the option of having the game count for both at the discretion of the loser?

- Leagues can set up schedules however they want so long as AD's agree. There is no mandatory home and home that is just how leagues choose to play it. They could play each other 3 times, 4 times, once whatever they could agree on. They could have a couple of tournaments or jamborees a year to decide their rankings if they want. The NBIAA just needs to know based on their conference's format who finishes 1,2,3,4.

- You hate to think about kids in terms of which is more important because they are all important and valuable. That being said you've got teams that are so weak, that the best kids on other teams are punished not only by having to have the game, but needing to sit on the bench and watch kids they've worked hard to earn more then playing. ONce or twice a year you can argue they should support their teammates and cheer from the bench. When they have a max number of games they can play, how many times should they be asked or required to do this? IF it is too often there is no reward for their hard work in off season.

Very good points.
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Maripac30



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PostSubject: Re: Play hard or don't play   Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:32 pm

Anyone just tuning in to this thread may find some of the comments a bit confusing. That would be because the 2nd half of Scorekeep's original post (the over the top rant part) seems to have disappeared.
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Coachmac



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PostSubject: Re: Play hard or don't play   Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:33 pm

Maripac30 wrote:
Anyone just tuning in to this thread may find some of the comments a bit confusing. That would be because the 2nd half of Scorekeep's original post (the over the top rant part) seems to have disappeared.

Maybe common sense kicked in.....
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PostSubject: Re: Play hard or don't play   Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:50 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Play hard or don't play   Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:52 pm

scorekeep wrote:
As Jack Nicholson once said "Marpic you can't handle the truth". I stand by my post.

Apparently not or it would still be there. It isn't like you fixed a typo.....lol.
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PostSubject: Re: Play hard or don't play   Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:55 pm

There are some people that only want you to agree with them on every point and when you use strong adjectives they make you out like a puppy beater.
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Maripac30



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PostSubject: Re: Play hard or don't play   Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:07 pm

scorekeep wrote:
As Jack Nicholson once said "Marpic you can't handle the truth". I stand by my post.
Stand by what, the half you left on or the half you "wimped out" and erased.

I don't care if you agree with me or not. You made a statement. I (and others) made points against it and then you erased half you original post. Who needs their Blankie now


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PostSubject: Re: Play hard or don't play   Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:17 pm

Coachmac wrote:
Maripac30 wrote:
Anyone just tuning in to this thread may find some of the comments a bit confusing. That would be because the 2nd half of Scorekeep's original post (the over the top rant part) seems to have disappeared.

Maybe common sense kicked in.....

Common Sense here -
Excellent points, Coach - and well written
I have been thumped handily, and I find players accept it, and it motivates them to improve - so long as the other team is not rubbing their face in it.

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coach12



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PostSubject: Re: Play hard or don't play   Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:21 pm

The one thing that I would say is in regards to tournaments "forcing" teams to run the score up because of point differential. That really isn't true at all when you think of it. when tie breakers occur, they are always between the tied teams. I'm sorry, but if you beat a team by 30 points and then go out and lose to a team who beat that team...then something just isn't right. If you win by 20 + points...you're pretty well ALWAYS going to make the crossovers. You'd have to lose your other game by more than 20...just not going to happen.

As far as "running up the score" goes...clearly everyone here has been on both sides of "beatings" and it's how you handle both is what matters. When I lose by a big score, I clearly shouldn't be focusing on what the other team is doing, I should be focused on what I should be doing differently to make my program better.

That being said, there is a level of sportsmanship that should be extended to teams when playing. Clearly, teams shouldn't be "showing" up other teams and players, but in all honesty I don't think it's up to the team who's losing to say that.

People just have to remember, that when you "show" other teams up...what goes around comes around...things usually find a way of evening itself out.
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driver59



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PostSubject: Re: Play hard or don't play   Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:29 pm

The Bonarlaw tournament was a round robin tournament with no cross over 4 teams playing 3 games each , the team with the best record wins the turny . if Jma had of lost against CAL in there last game then CNBA would have finished in first because there point spread in the games they won was larger
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Boas 98-02



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PostSubject: Re: Play hard or don't play   Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:32 pm

driver59 wrote:
The Bonarlaw tournament was a round robin tournament with no cross over 4 teams playing 3 games each , the team with the best record wins the turny . if Jma had of lost against CAL in there last game then CNBA would have finished in first because there point spread in the games they won was larger

Yes it was, good old fashioned rd robin, forces u to win EVERY game by as much as possible to ensure u win!!!! Nothing wrong with this in exhibition format, all these games did was give everyone a preview of one another and give the kids a chance to have some fun, after all, that's what high school ball is about.
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PostSubject: Re: Play hard or don't play   Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:37 pm

My only point here is that losing by 80 is no fun, winning by 80 is no fun either, if you enjoy winning by that much then you are bound to be trampled, like coach 12 said, it's gonna bite u in the end!!! In a blowout game, slow the tempo, u can still play hard, but give the young guys their chance, they give just as much as your starters at practice most of the time, and they earn their shot picking out those splinters all year!!
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PostSubject: Re: Play hard or don't play   Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:40 pm

i agree but i would rather see the 2 teams that are tied play a game to break the tie .just my opinion
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PostSubject: Re: Play hard or don't play   Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:14 am

Devon Park beat Nackawic the other night by 113 points.
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PostSubject: Re: Play hard or don't play   Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:06 am

life is hard and then you die. just play the game...no excuses
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