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 Question for all of you coaches

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Aceforever



Posts : 98
Join date : 2009-11-24

PostSubject: Question for all of you coaches   Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:36 pm

Just curious what people think about the sportsmanship side of coaching. Specifically at what point you stop pressing a team.

20 points is the unwritten rule, is that what you go by? 30, 40, 50?
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inthehouse



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PostSubject: Re: Question for all of you coaches   Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:09 pm

Good question for discussion, a little subjective but I think it all depends on the situation. I can tell you that 40 and 50 points is very excessive and noone should be pressing then. Don't forget coaches, "what goes around, comes around" - have some empathy.

On the other side of the coin, I've played, coached and seen a lot of games and a 20 point lead early can evaporate. Sure, maybe 20 is an unwritten rule going into the fourth but everyone is different? Hope this helps, thoughts??

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Aceforever



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PostSubject: Re: Question for all of you coaches   Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:57 pm

agreed 100% coach. I think how the game is going certainly matters and the logic of it all is something to consider. I think that in junior 20 points may be game over depending, in senior with better shooters etc. you may have to push some more. In the club scene maybe even more, not really sure.

More thoughts?
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CoachT



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PostSubject: Re: Question for all of you coaches   Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:44 pm

I think it really does depend on the situation and knowing your team. Even if you have your bench in, its also their turn to play and improve their game. You dont want to be showing up the other team by pressing, trapping and still running your fast break, but the game still needs to be played....

As well, as "Inthehouse" mentioned, sometimes what goes around comes around.....and maybe a good fashion butt whopping is the best way to quiet a team that does their talking off the court.....

My belief is that the best way to show another team respect is by giving them your best....
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McCoach



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PostSubject: Re: Question for all of you coaches   Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:45 pm

Great topic!

I have been on both sides of this coaching. I have been in the position of being down 30 and still being pressed. (Tier 2 girls ball at a tier 1 tourny) I have also been the coach up 20, and seen the lead evaporate! My usual rule depends on when in the game the lead is developed. If I am up 20 early in the game, then I take it off.

When coaching at a younger level the rule is typically 15 points at least that's my guideline.

Out of curiosity what brought on the topic Ace?
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Aceforever



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PostSubject: Re: Question for all of you coaches   Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:14 pm

Saw a squad beat on 3 different teams but 40+ and press till the last minute of the game and was curious. No issue was made about it really (as far as I could tell) but was curious as to people's takes on it since the "guidelines" seem to be vague with no real rule out there as to proper etiquette so I was curious as to what others though.

I have seen many coaches post on here so figured this would be a good forum to check it out.
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Coach_S



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PostSubject: Re: Question for all of you coaches   Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:56 pm


Ace, I believe you might referring to Gloucester HS. I happen to be one of the coaches there and I think I understand what you're saying. Normally we do pull of the press but this weekend was something more significant to the team. I don't know if you're aware what happened with us ending up in Tier 2 but I'll fill you in. We played a team and had an ineligible player. It was an honest mistake. We pulled him out of the game before anything of significance took place. So we notified the other coach about the situation and they had the option of taking the win or playing the game out. They opted to play the game and we won by 40 or so. However through out the course of the game there were some little events taking place. The coach was kicked out for storming the court. Understandable when you believe a foul was committed when a player is hurt (in this case there was no foul). The next day we found out they decided to take the win against us. We ended up finishing 1-3 in our pool and it dropped us to Tier 2. Now boys being boys, these guys were being chastised by other teams for being in Tier 2. So we made it our mission to be the best and prove that we belonged. This tournament was a chance for these guys to silence the others. They worked hard and wanted to show the the other teams that they belonged in a higher level. Will we do that again? Probably not. But, in our defence, the press was mixed in with our zone D. Just sayin haha.

On a side note, congrats to St. Pats. They are a phenomenal team and are extremely well coached. They ran their offence to perfection and played solid high pressure defence.
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Aceforever



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PostSubject: Re: Question for all of you coaches   Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:42 am

It's not my intent to call out a team with this. I merely thought it would be an interesting topic to talk about so I won't say that it is Gloucester that I am talking about and to be honest, numerous teams have done this so for those who have, don't be stressing about it.

I am simply curious about what people think should be done in these situations. I know there are different trains of thought on it and wanted to put it out there so that people could voice their opinion is all.

That does suck for the Gloucester team though coach. It really seems like a strange year where some of the tier 1 teams really should not have been (mainly in the west in my opinion) and some teams in the east got a raw deal playing in such a significantly stronger side of the city.
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coachc



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PostSubject: Re: Question for all of you coaches   Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:04 am

Though the Gloucester situation may be unfortunate that they were relegated to tier two, but to use the kids to make a point seems to go against the spirit of high school sports. Perhaps I am out of line here, but choosing to blow teams out by 40 because you are making a point is demoralizing the kids on the other team when they did nothing wrong to you. What is the difference of winning by 20 and not pressing vs winning by 40 and pressing??? How about going out and winning the tier two championship to make your point? Seems like more of a point as the convenors of the league will know who won the league championship before they ever know who won a tournament.

Here is my take on the general topic. First, blow outs happen and I believe that you cannot remove them from sports. Secondly, I do not believe in letting up in terms of players playing hard, but coaches can monitor the situation of pressing or not. Kids should still be playing solid defence and taking good shots etc. Work on your systems, get your role players an opportunity to play with some of the starters and mix things up a bit that way. If your lead gets shortened, put the press back on with your starters then adjust when the lead gets back up to 20+.


Last edited by coachc on Sun Feb 13, 2011 10:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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Raps and Wildcats



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PostSubject: Re: Question for all of you coaches   Sun Feb 13, 2011 10:07 am

My unwritten rule has always been 20-25points ; however, I have seen teams play all out and press for a half and then hold back in the second half. I think that's fair. Some have used a running analogy that you don't slow down in a race to let the other competitors catch up. Not quite sure if that analogy applies entirely here.

Sometimes teams have trouble scoring in the half court and their only way to generate flow, tempo, and more offense is to pick-up full court.

I also think naturally we coaches are all fairly competitive and if other teams have provided you with "bulletin board" material, you may be more apt to push a little longer. Perhaps that's not in the spirit of the game but I know when the competitive juices are flowing, rationale judgements are sometimes hard to find.

Good discussion! Good luck to everyone in playoffs!
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John Stockton's Shorts



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PostSubject: Pressing when up a 100   Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:00 pm

At this weekend's tourney in the Soo, Mount Zion Prep pressed Central Algoma (CASS) ("A") the whole game. The final score was 122-36. That might be the cut-off point. Evil or Very Mad
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Aceforever



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PostSubject: Re: Question for all of you coaches   Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:16 pm

wow, might be? was anything said afterwards? anyone know if there is anything that can be done about those kind of things? What did people say about it down there?
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John Stockton's Shorts



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PostSubject: Commonplace occurence   Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:21 pm

Unfortunately, in the tourney's first round these scores are a regular occurance, especially as point differential is important further on during the tournament.
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NOS



Posts : 42
Join date : 2009-11-30

PostSubject: Re: Question for all of you coaches   Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:18 pm

@Aceforever
Nothing can be done, you can't stop a team from running out scores and blowing teams out of the water like this. In other words, you can't penalize a team for winning that badly. It just comes down to respect, and most tournaments are trying to stop scores like this by putting caps at 20 points. Meaning whether you win by 20, or 40, it is the same for the plus/minus for tiebreakers, at plus 20 or minus 20. Just so teams don't have an incentive to run up scores like this. I agree with this method, but still may not hold teams back from running the score up.
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John Stockton's Shorts



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PostSubject: Am I a Neanderthal?   Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:35 am

I think that the boys on the floor have to make sure that the team running the score up know that the tactic has a physical price, nothing serious but no easy baskets. I believe that is one of the ways that Bball has changed since I played! Twisted Evil
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coachc



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PostSubject: Re: Question for all of you coaches   Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:04 am

John Stockton's Shorts wrote:
I think that the boys on the floor have to make sure that the team running the score up know that the tactic has a physical price, nothing serious but no easy baskets. I believe that is one of the ways that Bball has changed since I played! Twisted Evil

Really?
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John Stockton's Shorts



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PostSubject: Re: Question for all of you coaches   Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:42 am

coachc wrote:
John Stockton's Shorts wrote:
I think that the boys on the floor have to make sure that the team running the score up know that the tactic has a physical price, nothing serious but no easy baskets. I believe that is one of the ways that Bball has changed since I played! Twisted Evil

Really?

Do you think that the game is as hard as it was? I was coached to not allow any easy lay-ups, as a hard foul on the ball was always required. If we did not we would be pulled. That is what I see missing. I am not advocating flagrant fouls but always contest the shot in an intense fashion. Basketball
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McCoach



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PostSubject: Re: Question for all of you coaches   Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:41 am

I am totally loving this discussion. It brings so many different views on sport values to the table. FANTASTIC.

There are obviously many different situations where these 'blow-out' games can happen. I really like the idea of the cap on the plus-minus at 20.


To inspire more talk:
Would there be reason to institute a blow-out rule on pressing?
If so what would the point difference be?
How do the players feel at the end of these games? (winners/losers?)
What sportsmanship value is being taught in blow-out games?
At what level of play should a potential 'blow-out' rule stop being in existence?

Would love to keep the chatter going!
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coachc



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PostSubject: Re: Question for all of you coaches   Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:53 am

I think that sometimes we look back at when we played and we over emphasize certain aspects of the past. We say man I had it tough when perhaps it was no tougher than the way it is now. We still tell our guys that if you foul someone, he better not make the shot. I believe that the intention was never to hurt someone but merely to ensure that they made two free throws for those points before giving them the easy layup. This is still the case. You "send a message" by playing tough. That is, diving for loose balls, go to the hoop without being intimidated, taking a charge regardless of how hard that person is driving, etc. You don't send messages by intentionally fouling someone which could end up hurting the athlete. This is not the New York Islanders...it is high school basketball!

As to McCoach's question on bringing in a rule, no I do not think this is necessary. Even if a team gets pressed in a blow out, there is something to learn there. Have the discussion with your team after the game to explain to them why that was classless on the other team's part. Teach them what sportsmanship is and is not. If we put in these rules, then we would need to enforce them, and I am not sure that this is possible.
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John Stockton's Shorts



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PostSubject: Re: Question for all of you coaches   Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:43 pm

coachc wrote:
I think that sometimes we look back at when we played and we over emphasize certain aspects of the past. We say man I had it tough when perhaps it was no tougher than the way it is now. We still tell our guys that if you foul someone, he better not make the shot. I believe that the intention was never to hurt someone but merely to ensure that they made two free throws for those points before giving them the easy layup. This is still the case. You "send a message" by playing tough. That is, diving for loose balls, go to the hoop without being intimidated, taking a charge regardless of how hard that person is driving, etc. You don't send messages by intentionally fouling someone which could end up hurting the athlete. This is not the New York Islanders...it is high school basketball!

As to McCoach's question on bringing in a rule, no I do not think this is necessary. Even if a team gets pressed in a blow out, there is something to learn there. Have the discussion with your team after the game to explain to them why that was classless on the other team's part. Teach them what sportsmanship is and is not. If we put in these rules, then we would need to enforce them, and I am not sure that this is possible.

I am not saying that we should intentionally commit a flagrant foul anyone but strenuously contest the shot and play the ball. And at the senior level, the boys that are playing physically are men and have a chance to get injured on every play that occurs during the game. I am not counselling anyone to injure their opponent but just make sure that they should respect the game and the players involved.

As an aside CoachC how many of your players play football as well. I have noticed that there is a different mindset of players that play both as opposed to those who do not. Have you noticed this difference or is it just me?

I also noticed this weekend that there is a noticeable different in attitude between a Canadian high school student and a matriculated prep school student? Have you noticed the same? And lastly, are the prep school's in Ottawa similar to Next level or Phase One?
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coachc



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PostSubject: Re: Question for all of you coaches   Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:08 pm

An example of what many of us have said was on full display tonight at the Sacred Heart vs St. Pats semifinal playoff game. Sacred Heart was up about 30 heading into the final quarter of this elimination game and the coach did not play his starters together (indeed they barely played at all) in the fourth. This was a great opportunity for the reserve players to get some quality experience against a physical and agressive team. If a coach can take off the heat in a game for an ofsaa birth, surely there is no reason to be pressing when up 40+ is there?
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NOS



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PostSubject: Re: Question for all of you coaches   Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:21 pm

Couldn't agree more coachc. If Tony can take that the starters out against a quick scoring team like St. Pats in such an important game, that shows a 30 point lead is safe and is unnecessary to keep pressing and leaving the starters on to blow out a team by 50 to just to "prove a point"
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inthehouse



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PostSubject: Re: Question for all of you coaches   Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:59 am

I must admit I was struggling with the decision to "call off the dogs" and do the classy/right thing? I recommend to all coaches that when you go into a visitors gym that you advise your players not to huddle at centre court on our logo (stay on your side) and do your chanting. I'm "old-school" and when you do that I take it as a sign of "disrespect" and I get upset. I realize it might be trying to get an "edge" or into a teams head but I was not very happy and challenged my guys to defend their house. I think they got my message loud and clear and took care of it on the court.

So yes even the fact that it was the biggest game of our year to date and that our opponents pulled the above I still decided to take the press off and play my reserves who work hard all year and deserve some time in a game of this magnitude. The game is not about "us" coaches - step back and do the right thing.
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John Stockton's Shorts



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PostSubject: Signs of Disrespect?   Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:32 am

I am not sure if this is the same province-wide but here the fans are quiet during the foul-shooting process for both sides.

Last night during the semi-final the visiting team brought out fans (which is cool - the money goes into our schools coffers) but with them they brought all kinds of noisemakers and cow bells which they used vociferously during our foul shots. I know that I might be over-sensitive but we felt that they were being DB's for starting this during a play-off game. We are already organizing air horns and extra load noisemakers for our next meeting which might be over-the-top but so be it.

A little feed-back would be appreciated. Twisted Evil


Last edited by John Stockton's Shorts on Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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McCoach



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PostSubject: Re: Question for all of you coaches   Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:12 am

From my experience it is not uncommon for the fans to make noise during foul shots. However, the last time I checked there was a rule against noise makers being used. The noise during foul shots is part of the game, and will definitely become part of the game as the athletes we coach move on to higher levels. It is something they will have to get used to and now is a great time to help train the athletes to clear their minds from all distraction and focus on the shot.
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