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 Lower Mainland AAA Draw and Results

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Who will won the "AAA" Lower Mainlands
Bby South
38%
 38% [ 11 ]
Palmer
24%
 24% [ 7 ]
VC
10%
 10% [ 3 ]
Tupper
14%
 14% [ 4 ]
Kits
7%
 7% [ 2 ]
Byrne Creek
0%
 0% [ 0 ]
Other
7%
 7% [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 29
 

AuthorMessage
Sportvictoria



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Location : Victoria BC Canada

PostSubject: Re: Lower Mainland AAA Draw and Results   Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:07 pm

basketballfan1 wrote:
I heard that Saint's petitioned to BC School Sports to be included in the LM tourney and thats why they have this format this year. I don't agree with it, but if they do win four games in four days then maybe they deserve to go.


I'm sure that Claremont, WRCA, Enver Creek, South Kamloops all would like a 2nd bite at the apple too.

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baller1000



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PostSubject: Re: Lower Mainland AAA Draw and Results   Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:11 pm

Sportvictoria wrote:
TextBook wrote:
Maybe I don't know Basketball BC very well, but why does Saints get a chance to play Kits for a chance at provincials when only 1 team from the independent league goes to Lower Mainlands ?



Basketbal BC has nothing to do with this decision.

Basketball BC goverens club basketball and the provinicial development programs.

BC Boys Basketball Association goverens high school basketball.

And to answer your question to the best of my ablilty... politics, lawyers, threats, politics... but that's just my views and thoughts.


Lyle Dhur
Sportvictoria

Don't think you are stating all the facts.

This all started last year when LM Zone reduced their tournament from 16 - 12 teams. With 16 they were allocated 5 berths to the BC's and Ind 2, if ranked high enough, had a shot at that 5th spot. With 12 there would only be 4 berths.

So LM actually threw 3 of their own teams under the bus to get rid of the 5th berth, because they did not want two independents in the tournament. Of course, the reason given was that the bottom 4 were weak and uncompetitive, they were getting blown out and did not really want to play; or so the story went. Actually, it had to do with the fact that Ebe, Coutts, Matic and a few others just want to get rid of the independents for reasons of their own. If they had their way, no independents would be in the LM Zone or the BC's.

The LM manipulated their tournament to achieve their goal. They argue that it is their tournament and they can do what they want with it. On some level that is true. However, since that 5th berth was the only route for a top ranked Ind 2 from a tiny league to get to the BC's, the Ind appealed to BC Boys Basketball. They apparently saw the unfairness of that and re-instated the 5th berth. Of course Ebe and the others are arguing that they should have the right to manage their own zone and that BC Boys has to follow the rules and only allow 4 teams.

The politics, in my opinion, are with the LM zone. The Ind have asked to play in their league and all this could be avoided (like WRC). LM said no. Instead LM fixed their tournament to eliminate one of the Ind possible berths. As a result, the Ind, would never be able to qualify 2 teams for the BC's, even if they were the two best teams in BC. That is, of course, what the LM was hoping to achieve. BC Boys Basketball, which apparently is more interested in having the best teams in the tournament, fixed that situation and left it to LM to set the terms for qualifying for that 5th spot. That is why Saints has to play 4 games in 4 days.

Other teams like Claremont, Enver, South kam all get the opportunity to play in their leagues and qualify for the available spots. The Ind have been isolated in a two team league, because the LM will not let them in. The rules state that in this situation a team has to have route in. The LM has done their best to eliminate that route and are making a lot of noise because BC Boys Basketball won't let them get away with it. The Ind are not the ones playing politics and behaving badly here.

This is supposed to be about kids and basketball.
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ebe



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PostSubject: Re: Lower Mainland AAA Draw and Results   Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:44 pm

Quote :
Don't think you are stating all the facts.
This all started last year when LM Zone reduced their tournament from 16 - 12 teams. With 16 they were allocated 5 berths to the BC's and Ind 2, if ranked high enough, had a shot at that 5th spot. With 12 there would only be 4 berths.
This is not accurate. The number of berths to the BC's is based on number of teams in your zone and has nothing to do with how many teams you have in your zone tournament playdown.
Quote :
So LM actually threw 3 of their own teams under the bus to get rid of the 5th berth, because they did not want two independents in the tournament. Of course, the reason given was that the bottom 4 were weak and uncompetitive, they were getting blown out and did not really want to play; or so the story went. Actually, it had to do with the fact that Ebe, Coutts, Matic and a few others just want to get rid of the independents for reasons of their own. If they had their way, no independents would be in the LM Zone or the BC's.
Nobody was thrown under any bus the schools voted almost unanimously to go to a 12 team tournament for our AAA zone championships
Quote :
The LM manipulated their tournament to achieve their goal. They argue that it is their tournament and they can do what they want with it. On some level that is true. However, since that 5th berth was the only route for a top ranked Ind 2 from a tiny league to get to the BC's, the Ind appealed to BC Boys Basketball. They apparently saw the unfairness of that and re-instated the 5th berth. Of course Ebe and the others are arguing that they should have the right to manage their own zone and that BC Boys has to follow the rules and only allow 4 teams.
Again you are confused. Last season based on the number of teams in our zone we received 4 berths to the "AAA" tournament. This year with the number of teams in our zone we received 5 berths. Berths have nothing to do with strength of teams I repeat nothing. Berths to the BC tournament are based on numbers.
Quote :
The politics, in my opinion, are with the LM zone. The Ind have asked to play in their league and all this could be avoided (like WRC). LM said no. Instead LM fixed their tournament to eliminate one of the Ind possible berths. As a result, the Ind, would never be able to qualify 2 teams for the BC's, even if they were the two best teams in BC. That is, of course, what the LM was hoping to achieve. BC Boys Basketball, which apparently is more interested in having the best teams in the tournament, fixed that situation and left it to LM to set the terms for qualifying for that 5th spot. That is why Saints has to play 4 games in 4 days.
You have to understand that even if the coaches voted to go back to a 16 team LM tournament the independent league will still only get one berth as berths are based on numbers and they only have a two team league. As far as letting the independent's in to the Vancouver league this has nothing to do with basketball but it is an issue for all of the sports leagues in the LM. The independents have their own LM league and the Vancouver association does not allow them to compete, this has nothing to do with basketball but it is across all leagues.
Quote :
Other teams like Claremont, Enver, South kam all get the opportunity to play in their leagues and qualify for the available spots. The Ind have been isolated in a two team league, because the LM will not let them in. The rules state that in this situation a team has to have route in. The LM has done their best to eliminate that route and are making a lot of noise because BC Boys Basketball won't let them get away with it. The Ind are not the ones playing politics and behaving badly here.
The rules DO NOT state that a second place team in a small league must be given an avenue in to the BC's this is simply a false statement. St Georges had an opportunity to qualify for the zone tournament as the winner of their two team league was automatically in to suggest that they did not have an opportunity is not true.
Quote :
This is supposed to be about kids and basketball.
Yes it is supposed to be about kids and basketball I agree with you on this one. Unfortunately when the rules are changed to accomodate a certain group it only appears to be about specific kids and specific basketball programs.


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Naismith



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PostSubject: Re: Lower Mainland AAA Draw and Results   Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:17 pm

[quote="ebe"]
Quote :
Quote :
This is supposed to be about kids and basketball.
Yes it is supposed to be about kids and basketball I agree with you on this one. Unfortunately when the rules are changed to accomodate a certain group it only appears to be about specific kids and specific basketball programs.



Agreed!
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basketballfan1



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PostSubject: Re: Lower Mainland AAA Draw and Results   Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:21 pm

So was I correct in saying that BC School Sports made the decision to allow St George's a chance at getting into the LM tourney? If not, could you please tell us why they were given the opportunity?

Thanks.
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Mark Scott



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PostSubject: Re: Lower Mainland AAA Draw and Results   Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:28 pm

basketballfan1 wrote:
So was I correct in saying that BC School Sports made the decision to allow St George's a chance at getting into the LM tourney? If not, could you please tell us why they were given the opportunity?

Thanks.

Good question. I wonder why BC School Sports decided to give St. George's a chance. Seems surprising in light of the story in Ebe's post. Maybe there is another side to this?
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ebe



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PostSubject: Re: Lower Mainland AAA Draw and Results   Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:51 pm

basketballfan1 wrote:
So was I correct in saying that BC School Sports made the decision to allow St George's a chance at getting into the LM tourney? If not, could you please tell us why they were given the opportunity?
Thanks.

NO, BC School Sports has nothing to do with this decision. The decision to go ahead with the backdoor tournament was made by the member schools in the Lower Mainland at a special general meeting. The decision was forced on us after the British Columbia High School Boys basketball Association (BCHSBBA) ruled that our zone needed to provide an opportunity for the 2nd place Lower mainland Independent league team. Our dispute with BCHSBBA is simply that we believe that they have illegaly altered the rules of our constitution and they believe they have not. Our zone has asked to go to arbritration to get a third party to make a decision but the BCHSBBA has declined this opportunity. This issue will obviously be discussed at the BCHSBBA AGM in a couple of weeks.
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PostSubject: Re: Lower Mainland AAA Draw and Results   Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:57 pm

Thanks for the clarification Ebe. Much appreciated. Would love to be a fly on the wall at the AGM.
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PostSubject: Re: Lower Mainland AAA Draw and Results   Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:11 pm

ebe wrote:
basketballfan1 wrote:
So was I correct in saying that BC School Sports made the decision to allow St George's a chance at getting into the LM tourney? If not, could you please tell us why they were given the opportunity?
Thanks.

NO, BC School Sports has nothing to do with this decision. The decision to go ahead with the backdoor tournament was made by the member schools in the Lower Mainland at a special general meeting. The decision was forced on us after the British Columbia High School Boys basketball Association (BCHSBBA) ruled that our zone needed to provide an opportunity for the 2nd place Lower mainland Independent league team. Our dispute with BCHSBBA is simply that we believe that they have illegaly altered the rules of our constitution and they believe they have not. Our zone has asked to go to arbritration to get a third party to make a decision but the BCHSBBA has declined this opportunity. This issue will obviously be discussed at the BCHSBBA AGM in a couple of weeks.

When you say this "The decision was forced on us after the British Columbia High School Boys basketball Association (BCHSBBA) ruled that our zone needed to provide an opportunity for the 2nd place Lower mainland Independent league team." Why would the BCHSBBA do this?: Do they think something unfair was going on? Who decided on the format for the back-door tournament and is this a standard format for back-door tournaments?
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ebe



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PostSubject: Re: Lower Mainland AAA Draw and Results   Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:41 pm

Mark Scott wrote:
When you say this "The decision was forced on us after the British Columbia High School Boys basketball Association (BCHSBBA) ruled that our zone needed to provide an opportunity for the 2nd place Lower mainland Independent league team." Why would the BCHSBBA do this?: Do they think something unfair was going on? Who decided on the format for the back-door tournament and is this a standard format for back-door tournaments?

Why the BCHSBBA decided to do this is a question that only they can answer. The format for the backdoor tournament was decided by the members of the LMHSBBA with the approval of the BCHSBBA. It is hard to say what a standard backdoor tournament would like in this situation as this has never happened before.
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baller1000



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PostSubject: Re: Lower Mainland AAA Draw and Results   Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:13 pm

ebe wrote:
Quote :
Don't think you are stating all the facts.
This all started last year when LM Zone reduced their tournament from 16 - 12 teams. With 16 they were allocated 5 berths to the BC's and Ind 2, if ranked high enough, had a shot at that 5th spot. With 12 there would only be 4 berths.
This is not accurate. The number of berths to the BC's is based on number of teams in your zone and has nothing to do with how many teams you have in your zone tournament playdown.
Quote :
So LM actually threw 3 of their own teams under the bus to get rid of the 5th berth, because they did not want two independents in the tournament. Of course, the reason given was that the bottom 4 were weak and uncompetitive, they were getting blown out and did not really want to play; or so the story went. Actually, it had to do with the fact that Ebe, Coutts, Matic and a few others just want to get rid of the independents for reasons of their own. If they had their way, no independents would be in the LM Zone or the BC's.
Nobody was thrown under any bus the schools voted almost unanimously to go to a 12 team tournament for our AAA zone championships
Quote :
The LM manipulated their tournament to achieve their goal. They argue that it is their tournament and they can do what they want with it. On some level that is true. However, since that 5th berth was the only route for a top ranked Ind 2 from a tiny league to get to the BC's, the Ind appealed to BC Boys Basketball. They apparently saw the unfairness of that and re-instated the 5th berth. Of course Ebe and the others are arguing that they should have the right to manage their own zone and that BC Boys has to follow the rules and only allow 4 teams.
Again you are confused. Last season based on the number of teams in our zone we received 4 berths to the "AAA" tournament. This year with the number of teams in our zone we received 5 berths. Berths have nothing to do with strength of teams I repeat nothing. Berths to the BC tournament are based on numbers.
Quote :
The politics, in my opinion, are with the LM zone. The Ind have asked to play in their league and all this could be avoided (like WRC). LM said no. Instead LM fixed their tournament to eliminate one of the Ind possible berths. As a result, the Ind, would never be able to qualify 2 teams for the BC's, even if they were the two best teams in BC. That is, of course, what the LM was hoping to achieve. BC Boys Basketball, which apparently is more interested in having the best teams in the tournament, fixed that situation and left it to LM to set the terms for qualifying for that 5th spot. That is why Saints has to play 4 games in 4 days.
You have to understand that even if the coaches voted to go back to a 16 team LM tournament the independent league will still only get one berth as berths are based on numbers and they only have a two team league. As far as letting the independent's in to the Vancouver league this has nothing to do with basketball but it is an issue for all of the sports leagues in the LM. The independents have their own LM league and the Vancouver association does not allow them to compete, this has nothing to do with basketball but it is across all leagues.
Quote :
Other teams like Claremont, Enver, South kam all get the opportunity to play in their leagues and qualify for the available spots. The Ind have been isolated in a two team league, because the LM will not let them in. The rules state that in this situation a team has to have route in. The LM has done their best to eliminate that route and are making a lot of noise because BC Boys Basketball won't let them get away with it. The Ind are not the ones playing politics and behaving badly here.
The rules DO NOT state that a second place team in a small league must be given an avenue in to the BC's this is simply a false statement. St Georges had an opportunity to qualify for the zone tournament as the winner of their two team league was automatically in to suggest that they did not have an opportunity is not true.
Quote :
This is supposed to be about kids and basketball.
Yes it is supposed to be about kids and basketball I agree with you on this one. Unfortunately when the rules are changed to accomodate a certain group it only appears to be about specific kids and specific basketball programs.



Given that you are one of the prime motivators behind all of the decisions, both this year and last, it is not surprising that we disagree and your take on events is different than mine.

What you have not addressed (and others have asked as well) is why did you and a few other proxy voters go to a 12 team tournament? Why were the berths reduced from 5 to 4 last year? Why did BCHSBBA put the 5th berth back in? Why are you objecting?

The fact is that by going to a 12 team tournament the LM zone effectively eliminated the opportunity for a 2nd berth for the #2 Independent. Wasn't that the objective? And if it wasn't, then why can't you understand that the independents might be unhappy with such a change?

The rules and policies have objectives concerning fairness and equity. It seems to me that the BCHSBBA which controls berthing was trying to get back to something resembling that.




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baller1000



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PostSubject: Re: Lower Mainland AAA Draw and Results   Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:23 pm

ebe wrote:
Mark Scott wrote:
When you say this "The decision was forced on us after the British Columbia High School Boys basketball Association (BCHSBBA) ruled that our zone needed to provide an opportunity for the 2nd place Lower mainland Independent league team." Why would the BCHSBBA do this?: Do they think something unfair was going on? Who decided on the format for the back-door tournament and is this a standard format for back-door tournaments?

Why the BCHSBBA decided to do this is a question that only they can answer. The format for the backdoor tournament was decided by the members of the LMHSBBA with the approval of the BCHSBBA. It is hard to say what a standard backdoor tournament would like in this situation as this has never happened before.

Hilarious lol!

Why indeed?

Maybe they don't agree with you.
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Sportvictoria



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PostSubject: Re: Lower Mainland AAA Draw and Results   Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:41 pm

baller1000 wrote:
Sportvictoria wrote:
TextBook wrote:
Maybe I don't know Basketball BC very well, but why does Saints get a chance to play Kits for a chance at provincials when only 1 team from the independent league goes to Lower Mainlands ?



Basketball BC has nothing to do with this decision.

Basketball BC governs club basketball and the provincial development programs.

BC Boys Basketball Association governs high school basketball.

And to answer your question to the best of my ability... politics, lawyers, threats, politics... but that's just my views and thoughts.


Lyle Dhur
Sportvictoria

Don't think you are stating all the facts.

This all started last year when LM Zone reduced their tournament from 16 - 12 teams. With 16 they were allocated 5 berths to the BC's and Ind 2, if ranked high enough, had a shot at that 5th spot. With 12 there would only be 4 berths.

So LM actually threw 3 of their own teams under the bus to get rid of the 5th berth, because they did not want two independents in the tournament. Of course, the reason given was that the bottom 4 were weak and uncompetitive, they were getting blown out and did not really want to play; or so the story went. Actually, it had to do with the fact that Ebe, Coutts, Matic and a few others just want to get rid of the independents for reasons of their own. If they had their way, no independents would be in the LM Zone or the BC's.

The LM manipulated their tournament to achieve their goal. They argue that it is their tournament and they can do what they want with it. On some level that is true. However, since that 5th berth was the only route for a top ranked Ind 2 from a tiny league to get to the BC's, the Ind appealed to BC Boys Basketball. They apparently saw the unfairness of that and re-instated the 5th berth. Of course Ebe and the others are arguing that they should have the right to manage their own zone and that BC Boys has to follow the rules and only allow 4 teams.

The politics, in my opinion, are with the LM zone. The Ind have asked to play in their league and all this could be avoided (like WRC). LM said no. Instead LM fixed their tournament to eliminate one of the Ind possible berths. As a result, the Ind, would never be able to qualify 2 teams for the BC's, even if they were the two best teams in BC. That is, of course, what the LM was hoping to achieve. BC Boys Basketball, which apparently is more interested in having the best teams in the tournament, fixed that situation and left it to LM to set the terms for qualifying for that 5th spot. That is why Saints has to play 4 games in 4 days.

Other teams like Claremont, Enver, South kam all get the opportunity to play in their leagues and qualify for the available spots. The Ind have been isolated in a two team league, because the LM will not let them in. The rules state that in this situation a team has to have route in. The LM has done their best to eliminate that route and are making a lot of noise because BC Boys Basketball won't let them get away with it. The Ind are not the ones playing politics and behaving badly here.

This is supposed to be about kids and basketball.


Baller1000... I don't know how many times I could say you're WRONG with what you have posted there. But if I tried, I think I'd sprain my tongue.

BTW... I never said anything about facts in my post... I said "views and thoughts".

The size of the LM tournament has absolutely NOTHING to do with the number of berths the region receives. If you did know what you were talking about then this would be something you would already know. The Island has 8 teams in the Island tourney EVERY year and has for at least 30 years. We have 2 berths to the BCs this year, last year we had 3, the year before we had 2 and then for the last 12-15 or so years before that we had 3, then there were a couple of years that we had 4, then 3 before that. ALL with 8 teams in the Island playoffs. So... how does berthing works with the LM changing their playoff structure? I already know the correct answer... waiting for you to see what you come up with to step into it some more.

So the Independent (private schools) league got 1 berth, on their road to get into the BCs... would this not constitute their league and their path to the BCs? They have a winner and that winner moves on - just like the OK zone. 1 berth and the winner moves on.

You may not like it, but the LM association is a democratic body that VOTED to make the change from 16 to 12 in the playoffs. The reason they had was that the 13-16 teams could never compete and there were nothing but massive blowouts - thus no value to the games, just a risk of injuries to the top teams by the bottom teams that knew they could not compete. This WAS and IS a valid reason/justification. This decision resulted in less regional berths for ALL LM leagues... thus the 1 berth to the Ind league.

All about the kids? Are you that naive? Private school “A” shall we say goes to the BCs and does well… that means more Alumni money coming into the school… more paying student registration coming into the school… more sponsor money coming into the school… more prestige… if they win then more becomes A LOT MORE. In a public school it’s the same thing, just take away the paying student registration.

Some coaches (both public and private) recruit, some programs (both public and private) recruit – is this all for the kids? When, in BC, did a quality kid from a small school get “missed” by the colleges and universities?

Could this whole situation have been handled better? Yes. It could have been.
Could this whole situation been handled worse? Yes. It could have been.

It’s a mess. I don’t know what the fix to it will be or even if there is a viable one out there.

And this is ALL POLITICS… otherwise the democratic decision would have been respected.

Lyle Dhur
Sportvictoria
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Sportvictoria



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PostSubject: Re: Lower Mainland AAA Draw and Results   Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:00 pm

basketballfan1 wrote:
So was I correct in saying that BC School Sports made the decision to allow St George's a chance at getting into the LM tourney? If not, could you please tell us why they were given the opportunity?

Thanks.

No you were not correct. BC School Sports had nothing to do with it.
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hoopnharm



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PostSubject: Re: Lower Mainland AAA Draw and Results   Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:08 pm

Don't even bother, baller1000 is the white knight for private schools, bound to pop out when someone is slandering the good name of VC and St George's Very Happy

Occasionally he is right, but in this instance, no. Plain wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: Lower Mainland AAA Draw and Results   Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:17 pm

baller1000 wrote:

Why were the berths reduced from 5 to 4 last year? Why did BCHSBBA put the 5th berth back in?


Baller1000 - before you get up on your soapbox... it would make you sound a lot more credible if you KNEW WHAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT.

BCHSBBA followed a pre-set structure for berthing - THEY DON'T "DECIDE" anything about the number of berths. It all has to do with the number of "AAA" teams in an area. It's purely a mathematical formula. The formula is applied to "A", "AA" & "AAA" based on the number of registered teams.

In 2009, Howe Sound had 5 teams (1 berth) then in 2010 had 9 teams (2 berths) to 2011 with 6 teams (1 berth).

The Island in 2009 had 14 teams (2 berths) to 2010 with 15 teams (3 berths) to 2011 with 14 teams (1 berth).

Thus...

The Lower Mainland stayed at 28 teams and went from 5 berths to 4 berths to 5 berths and the Fraser Valley stayed at 44 teams and went from 8 berths to 7 berths to 8 berths.

Lyle Dhur
Sportvictoria



Last edited by Sportvictoria on Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mark Scott



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PostSubject: VSSAA   Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:47 pm


Ebe,
You say the following, which you use as the basis for excluding the independents: "As far as letting the independent's (sic) in to the Vancouver league this has nothing to do with basketball but it is an issue for all of the sports leagues in the LM. The independents have their own LM league and the Vancouver association does not allow them to compete, this has nothing to do with basketball but it is across all leagues."

So, if I have this correct, the Lower Mainland High School Boys Basketball Association cannot allow the independents to play in the Lower Mainland basketball tournament because the "Vancouver Association" does not allow independents to compete. Is the Vancouver Association the "Vancouver Secondary School Athletics Association"? VSSAA seems to include all of the schools from the Lower Mainland. So a 37 school organization (of which your school is a member) has voted "democratically" to not permit two of its members to compete and those schools are the two independents.

As I understand it, the two independents would like to compete equally with other schools. Why not simply ask your own VSSAA to let them do so?

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PostSubject: Re: Lower Mainland AAA Draw and Results   Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:49 pm

Sportvictoria wrote:
basketballfan1 wrote:
So was I correct in saying that BC School Sports made the decision to allow St George's a chance at getting into the LM tourney? If not, could you please tell us why they were given the opportunity?

Thanks.

No you were not correct. BC School Sports had nothing to do with it.

Thanks but Ebe already answered my question in his previous post.
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PostSubject: Re: Lower Mainland AAA Draw and Results   Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:04 pm

Mark Scott wrote:

Is the Vancouver Association the "Vancouver Secondary School Athletics Association"? VSSAA seems to include all of the schools from the Lower Mainland. So a 37 school organization (of which your school is a member) has voted "democratically" to not permit two of its members to compete and those schools are the two independents.



Wait

Did you just say RC Palmer is part of the Vancouver Secondary School Athletics Association?
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PostSubject: Re: Lower Mainland AAA Draw and Results   Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:21 pm

I really think the best answer would be to have a separate Provincials where schools who had 2 or more transfers in after grade 9 participated. I've said it before, but it's because I thought it was a great suggestion from last year's AGM that Ebe was a driving force behind.
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PostSubject: Re: Lower Mainland AAA Draw and Results   Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:34 pm

okanaganbball wrote:
I really think the best answer would be to have a separate Provincials where schools who had 2 or more transfers in after grade 9 participated. I've said it before, but it's because I thought it was a great suggestion from last year's AGM that Ebe was a driving force behind.


There seems to be a couple of versions of this floating around.

I heard is was Dock that was putting it forward but it was from grade 8 on.

The basics of this idea have some merit - could be interesting if something clear gets worked out.


Lyle Dhur
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r-macbball



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PostSubject: Re: Lower Mainland AAA Draw and Results   Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:54 pm

Regardless of whatever level, our Provincial Tournament is about representation, it's not necessarily about having the top teams there.

baller 1000, im assuming you were at the LM meetings when the coaches voted, If the LM coaches voted on a new format then so be it, from what i know it was the lower seeded Mainland teams that were pushing for the 12 team tourney anyways. Those kids probably felt they will not be able to compete with the higher seeded teams and wanted to save themselves the experience of getting it handed to them, believe it or not many of the programs affected are probably relieved to not have to play those games (outside of Independent 2)

There is no arguing that VC and Saints have one of the better programs going in the past 10 years , they've produced guys like A.Murphy (via VC), M.Mayotte (via St.Pats) B.Kong (via Ablerta??) Scrubb brothers, etc It's no wonder why some of the schools don't want to have to go thru them if they don't have to.

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PostSubject: Re: Lower Mainland AAA Draw and Results   Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:30 pm

Mark Scott wrote:

Ebe,
You say the following, which you use as the basis for excluding the independents: "As far as letting the independent's (sic) in to the Vancouver league this has nothing to do with basketball but it is an issue for all of the sports leagues in the LM. The independents have their own LM league and the Vancouver association does not allow them to compete, this has nothing to do with basketball but it is across all leagues."
So, if I have this correct, the Lower Mainland High School Boys Basketball Association cannot allow the independents to play in the Lower Mainland basketball tournament because the "Vancouver Association" does not allow independents to compete. Is the Vancouver Association the "Vancouver Secondary School Athletics Association"? VSSAA seems to include all of the schools from the Lower Mainland. So a 37 school organization (of which your school is a member) has voted "democratically" to not permit two of its members to compete and those schools are the two independents.
As I understand it, the two independents would like to compete equally with other schools. Why not simply ask your own VSSAA to let them do so?

Mark some good questions but there is still some misunderstanding with regard to how the LM works. The LM is comprised of 4 separate leagues; Vancouver(VSSAA), Richmond (RSSAA), Burnaby New West (BNWSSAA) & Independent (LMIHSAA). Each league gets berths to the LM tournaments based on their population and it is the same at the Provincial level as each zone gets berths to the BC tournaments based on their population. This calculation is called the berthing formula and if you look at the numbers below you will see how this years LM "AAA: zone tournament was done:
28 total teams divided by 12 (the number of teams in the tournament) = 2.33
Indepenedent 2 teams divided by 2.33 = 0.858 1 berth
Richmond 5 teams divided by 2.33 = 2.145 2 berths
Burnaby New/West 7 teams divided by 2.33 = 3.004 3 berths
Vancouver 14 teams divided by 2.33 = 6.008 6 berths
If you apply this same formula to a 16 team tournament the Independent league would still only get one berth. Beths are based on the number of teams in your league (or in your zone for provincial berths). Berths are not based on strength of teams There is a clause in the BCHSBBA constitution that allows for the possibility of small zones to apply for a 2nd berth and this is where the dispute has come to a problem. The BCHSBBA has put in brand new language that has never been voted on or discussed by the members that has given independent #2 the chance to play for a spot and has disregarded previous criteria that was passed by the member schools. I understand that there are two sides to the issue and I respect other people having the opportunity to express their disagreement. There is however a tremendous amount of misinformation that is out there so it is my hope that I can help to clarify things a little. I want to thank Mark and other posters for sharing their opinions in a respectful way as I think this type of dialogue can be helpful for people to try and understand why some of these things are happening.
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PostSubject: Re: Lower Mainland AAA Draw and Results   Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:19 pm

With all due respect then, maybe you could answer my questions:

Did the change from 16 - 12 teams last year trigger the loss of one berth to the LMZ?

Did that change not eliminate the possibility of a second berth for the Independents?

Is it not conceivable that the independents would object to that when others with conflicting interests are making decisions that affect them?

The LM has all the cards and the Vancouver League acting in concert with them have isolated the independents by reshuffling the deck.

You can dress it up any way you want, but that was the objective from the start by the LM zone and they got their way last year.

Apparently, the BCHSBBA recognized that and has taken the appropriate action to achieve what what is intended by the clause in the BCHSBBA constitution that allows for the possibility of small zones to apply for a 2nd berth.

That is apparently in the spirit of the constitution but the LM doesn't agree.
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PostSubject: Re: Lower Mainland AAA Draw and Results   Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:25 pm


Thank you Ebe for your detailed response. It is a relief to get a reply which is clear, literate and polite. I still have a question or two about why the independents cannot compete with other schools, but I will have to leave it for another time. I am off to watch the St. George's Kits game....
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